Elen Barber: [00:00:00] It is too easy to make money in our industry comparing to any other industries, right?

The margins are much higher. So we are spoiled for this.

It doesn't drive as a innovation, but also it doesn't give us the result that we actually can get if we just think a little bit outside the box. 

Elen Barber: You also create opportunities, you don't wait for the opportunities to be created for you. You can't rely completely on your manager to get you through your career.

It takes two people you to show your interest and to show the potential and actually do extra things.

And it takes a good manager to recognise and reward you for that. ​

Elen Barber: For the leaders the higher you go you become more of a generalist.

You lose your sort of touch with a subject.

And it is scary for the leader to understand and accept that suddenly you know significantly less than people within your team.

I think a lot of leaders actually fail because they're so focused on keeping their role safe. 

Elen Barber: It was a horrible time.

Dealing with a massive restructure,

quite a few things going wrong when it [00:01:00] comes to financial results,

the share price has gone down,

we had to do quite significant headcount cuts.

I think it was the most stressful time in my career,

because everything went wrong.

And at some point you just have to say,

we are going to take one day at a time,

we are going to work really hard,

and then I'll make sure that we end up in as best situation as we can. 

Elen Barber: When we decided to leave Kindred,

it kind of looked like a great plan.

I'm going to spend time with my family,

it's going to be summer, we had a trip to Florida booked.

But what I didn't realise that I've been working all my life and I didn't know how to relax.

A couple of weeks down the line I missed that mental simulation.

And we sometimes forget to talk about our families,

how difficult for them when you go through this challenge,

because I was unbearable, 

Leo: Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast, where we uncover the human side of some of the most [00:02:00] inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Jukin, and as an ex iGaming director term performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Tain 3, 6, 5, flutter, and many more to help them build the habits.

To achieve sustainable high performance. 

In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said, let's dive in.

Leo: Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. I am here with Ellen Barber, who's gone from affiliate manager to CMO at Kindred. In nine years, she managed 550 people through Swedish regulation. A hundred million dollar fine pandemic chaos. The worst crisis in the company history. But really what's, uh, yeah, when most people create distance, Most executives create distance between themselves and the team. Ellen is actually somebody that used to walk the [00:03:00] floor making tea for a team, not because she's nice. is, but because she doesn't want to have yes people she wants the truth. So, uh, thank you for being on the podcast. Really excited to have you here today. 

Elen Barber: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Leo: I'd love to talk a little bit, uh, first about actually what got you into gaming.

Ellen, could you start off there? 

Elen Barber: I'll say sometimes stars just have to align. And, I was still at uni and a professor of, uh, my university, who was uh, teaching, pr, was working together, was advising a startup, and they were looking for. For marketeers. And there were sort of two options, uh, either to go the Forex route or to go the gambling route.

And I felt like, you know, working with money, it's a bit too, it's a bit too scary. So I chose the gambling route, and I didn't know anything about it. Um, think When you are young, you just haven't got that fear, right? You don't overthink. So I was thrown into deep water, given the email address, right, what message to write to affiliates.

And [00:04:00] uh, there we go. And really quickly I realised how dynamic this industry was, that time. It was a pretty much wild west, it was really exciting, right? You could do whatever you want, it was about all about building the relationship negotiation and creating the trust with your partners, which I think actually, served.

Its purpose when it comes to, you know, being a leader because you want to have that trustworthy relationship with your team, that you are always going to have their back and they're going to have your back. But yeah, that's how I started. Thrown into the deep water, and affiliate manager and five years

later on I moved,, to the uk and uh, I joined, uh, back then Unibet.

Leo: you said something that you, something like that you chose PR because you excluded every traditional profession. And your professor told you something like, internet marketing has zero future. That's obviously that didn't age very it 

Elen Barber: No, that didn't.

Leo: makes what makes it, What is it about you that always makes you comfortable with [00:05:00] being the outlier or maybe the challenger there? 

Elen Barber: so Actually there were two different professors, right? So the one that got me into the job, she was sort of younger and she understood the possibilities of that role. But it was my, my final work, at the, the university, that I was doing around affiliate marketing.

And they just didn't see the scale or the potential of it because it's just didn't really exist at that time. I wouldn't call myself as a challenger, right? I would call myself more, more of a innovator. I like to look at the causes, right? And what's, what the foundations of, a problem that we're trying to solve and, and start from there.

But it's always interesting to look for. Alternative solutions because that's what makes us think the job really exciting. Otherwise it's just the same old thing again and again and again. And I think especially about our industry, right? We are actually doing the same thing again and again.

So we are really as industry lacking I think innovation or sort of different way of thinking. So I like to, I like to challenge [00:06:00] that.

Leo: I was actually talking about to somebody about it last week, it's so easy to just make a copy of something and still make a ton of money. Right. so there's, there wasn't a real drive to for innovation because copying would just, know, would just, would just work.

Right. Do you, do you see it the same way? 

Elen Barber: is too easy to make money in our industry comparing to any other industries, right? So I think the margins are much higher. So we are spoiled for this, but yes. It doesn't drive as a innovation, but also it doesn't give us the result that we actually can get if we just think a little bit outside the box.

And there are obviously, there are foundations that are. That can be the same, right? Especially when it comes to technology and things like that. But when it comes to strategy, I think you really need to make sure you adapt your, your strategy, product to product, right? Or from market to market.

So you really can't copy paste and you shouldn't copy paste because at different also points of some you're working with a completely different audiences, different people. It's the same as, you and me. Imagine yourself, 10 years ago you were a completely different person or your values, right?

Your hobbies, right? [00:07:00] Your challenges, were completely different. And, It's stops not gonna work.

Leo: that makes a lot of sense. Hey, um, Elen, you went from affiliate manager to CMO, in nine years time you had six promotions I would love for you to walk us through that. Not so much the, the promotions itself, but like the moments that happen are the moments where you think, you look at the job above you or what, however you wanna call it, right.

The next stage in your career you think, oh, maybe I could do that. And then there's a time it takes until you think, ah, I can actually, you believe that you can actually do it. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that journey and those steps that you took and, the mental challenges were to getting ready to for that next level and how you got there. 

Elen Barber: it's a really good question because I don't think there is a, um, like every single step was a different challenge. It was a sort of different approach to it, but I think what I always say to people, I. You also create opportunities, right? You don't wait for the opportunities to be created for you and, um, [00:08:00] you can't rely completely on your manager to, get you through your career.

So I think it takes two people, it takes, you to show your interest and, to show the potential and actually do extra things. and it takes manager, a good manager to recognise and reward you for that. So that's, that's what I've been sort of doing a thing through all my life is.

Is creating these opportunities for myself and was really lucky, you know, enough through my career to have people, around me that recognised these opportunities and rewarded me with, with the promotion. But it always started, from me and taking that first step. I think it also that as the industry was, was developing and the marketing was really sort of changing that also, you know, kind of played in my favor.

So there know different channels. As more markets got regulated, the different channels got created. So I took that responsibility without asking for any sort of, pay rise, or a title. And as a result of a hard work. But I think what was the most difficult step is that, [00:09:00] is actually to get promoted to that, you know, C level because, suddenly the attitude, um, people that you used to work with really closely, for many years changes because now you are a C level, right? You're making these decisions, and it is really important that.

People still remember you as who you were before, and don't turn into yes people all the time because it's so easy, to just have the team that constantly agrees with your decision and doesn't challenge you back. So really make sure that they, they know that they can challenge you, in a healthy way and know that you can have a transparent conversation and don't get punished for that.

And it always takes time to build this trustworthy relationship. But I think that's the only way how you can have a really strong team that is. More knowledgeable than you are because it's, it's quite scary, I think For the leaders the higher you go, you become more of a generalist. You lose your sort of touch with a [00:10:00] subject.

and it's, it is scary for the leader to understand and accept that suddenly, you know, significantly less than people within your team. But they're not there to, first of all, they're there to challenge you in a good way. They're there to support you in your career. They're there to grow the business together with you, but also they're your successors.

Yep. 

So then they're not your competition. You are a big team and I think a lot of, a lot of leaders actually fail that because they're so focused on, you know, keeping their role safe. 

I.

Leo: was it for you, Ellen, that when was the first time that you realised there were yes men there, you know, there were people that were not necessarily challenging your, your decisions or your ideas. So that must have been really difficult because you, you grow through the ranks, right?

You, been together with those people for a long time. They're your friends now, you're their boss, right? And now all of a sudden you notice that people are not challenging you, challenging you anymore, but just agreeing with you. When, when was the first time that you noticed it that that happened?

And what did you [00:11:00] do about it? 

Elen Barber: I think you haven't properly, you know, within the first week of, uh, of me becoming the exec. you've got to face it and you've got to be very honest saying that, you know, clearly you are agreeing. Uh, you've got to be honest and open with people saying that nothing's going to change in the relationship.

Sometimes you as an exec have to make really challenging decisions when people disagree as well. So it's a fine balance between, uh, I think your team challenging you and you making the right decisions for the sake of the business as well.

but yeah, I think it, it becomes apparent really quickly.

Leo: did you find that difficult, you find it difficult to realise that that was going on and that, that's kind of the normal behavior or the behavior that people fall into when suddenly you are their boss? 

Elen Barber: it wasn't difficult. I think it was more where it was more sad, because everyone says that's the higher you go than the lonely it gets, but you only realise it when you face that and you learn to adapt, 

Yeah. 

right? You learn to create different type of relationship with people. Um, but yeah, that's, that's the nature I think of humans.

Leo: the higher it [00:12:00] gets the lonelier gets is so true. you don't realise that before you actually get to the, to that C level position, you don't realise that that's actually true. You hear it, but you don't experience it. must have been a bit of a slap in the face when you are in such a, you know, such a family environment almost for such a long 

time with

Kindred. And suddenly you feel, feel alone.

Elen Barber: I don't think I ever felt alone. Right. Because, because then you are in a different, I I was so lucky, I think with Kindred, right? It was a really big family. as I said to before, right? It was, it is, it was a place where I grew up, you know? You know, physically, right? You know, studying when I was about 27, and working there for, uh, for 14, nearly 14 years and then professionally.

And I've managed to, to keep sort of a, a circle of, of my friends, uh, or sort of acquaints that I, that I sort of work with and like spending time with. But also I expanded my relationship, into.

The new circle of the exec team. it was an amazing team to work with. You know, I remember, Brit really taking, taking me under her wing and looking [00:13:00] after me and, uh, you know, telling all the stories how she, she, you know, grew up through, through, through different roles in the company.

and you never feel that you are alone. it probably doesn't happen, you know, in, in many companies. So I don't think that my experience, you know, it was a traditional becoming an exec. 

Leo: You reminded me of Britt earlier actually. It's funny that you mentioned her name just now. You reminded me of her when you were saying about how you take that role. That's what she said on the podcast as well. She said, you don't ask for the corner office.

You take it. I love that quote.

Yeah,

forever. 

Elen Barber: I think it's that, that drive, right, that drive has to be in you, right? Because if you are passionate about something, uh, you have to drive it through.

Leo: Has it always been like that for you? That, you take the extra step, you go the extra mile, you do the extra work, and then things will happen as a result of that? Or is that something that you learned early on in your career that that's maybe the better approach to you to take? 

Elen Barber: I never had a different experience, right? That's my personal attitude, to work. So that's probably not the easiest way, [00:14:00] because you have to work, you know, more to, to get rewarded. And again, again, hoping that you are in the right surrounding, you know, for people to recognise.

Because there's so many examples when, when you, when you go an extra mile, you worked your hard, but then you don't get recognised. So I was really lucky, uh, that I chose throughout my career to work with people that trusted and supported me and, uh, sort of, we grew together.

Leo: Yep. And how did you feel about other people that you maybe saw in your career that were also making progress, were doing, taking a different approach, maybe taking the approach of trying to win people over when perhaps they, you knew from just working with them that they weren't that great. You know, we've all seen those type of people in our careers, right?

That kind of, I dunno, they escaped somehow the scrutiny that we seem to have to go through. How did you feel about those people and seeing that that progress happening? Did, did you, you feel frustrated by it? Was it just part of the, part of the role? Uh, how did you deal with those kind of things? 

Elen Barber: that's a good question. [00:15:00] I think. You learn with time to accept it, this is completely out of your control.

And there is no point in, in worrying, and sort of getting agitated or angry about it because there is nothing really you can do.

It is out of control. That's their choice.

Um, and you know, if it's not your choice, just leave. Leave it to them. 

Leo: Yeah. The Let them, theory. I like it.

Elen Barber: Let them, yeah.

Leo: a, such a great mindset. I, I completely agree. 

Elen Barber: but it's, it's, it's not, it's not that you are ignoring it, right? If it's something that bothers you, right? If something that affects you, right? It doesn't mean you should, completely let it go, right? Because it's obviously, you know, there's, there's, you have to change it.

Rachel Morrison, an amazing individual. Um, she used to put me in different chairs. So we'll be in the same room and she'll put two chairs. Uh, say, well, Ellen, you sit in this chair and how are you going to feel if everything goes exactly the same way? If, you know, there's people around you sort of gonna keep on, you know, [00:16:00] annoying, right?

Or, you know, you're not going to get the outcome that you after. and then let's move to another chair, right? And if you make some changes, and then she taught me to, to wear different hats. It's an amazing technique, right? Because you, learn to leave this emotions and then train yourself like, well, I don't want to be in this angry, anxious state of mind.

I want to be in peace, right? I want to be happy. So the certain hard choices that I've got to make, and if we're talking about sort of people that support you in your, career journey and you know, Mel Robbins talk about it, right? You can work extremely hard and you can go an extra mile and you can have a, you know, conversations with your, with your manager about your career progression.

But if that manager doesn't recognise you, and you've done everything that is in your power. What's your, what's the only choice that, that you're left with? You've got to leave and you've got to find a better place. You can go on and, get frustrated, and not look for the job, but also looking for a job is going to take you, is going to [00:17:00] take a lot of time.

It's very uncomfortable process. You've got to sell yourself, right? And you've got to face different people, and not everyone is going to be right for you. You're going to face completely sort of unknown environments.

You're gonna pushing yourself into unknown. But if you're not going to do that, the only outcome you have is you're going to, again, in this unhappy environment, you're not changing anything. 

Leo: so What were some of the things that you used to do to help you create an environment where people would be happy to speak their mind, to be happy, to challenge you, to push back on the things that perhaps you wanted to drive through.

What, what, what were some of the things that.

worked well for you? 

Elen Barber: I think people knew that, as I said in the beginning, that I'm always going to have their back. and that trust is not created over a day or a week, right? Either. People have to see that your words materialise in your actions, and I think they really have to see how you grow also within your career.

They know, they have to see how you, uh, handle [00:18:00] challenging situations, but ultimately they also have to see your, your true nature. So we all have bad days. We all have really bad days, right? And, you know, not to create that shield, that everything is fine and perfect. Sometimes you'll share the emotions, and frustrations that you have, with the right individuals and.

Actually in, in most of the cases, they're going to help you to get through that. So at dance, they're going to see you're not just, you know, a manager, a leader. You are the same human being. You've just been given, you know, you've got different skillset and you've been given different opportunity and then different challenges.

And, uh, I think you both feel lucky to work with each other, but I think it's also about extending your relationship a little bit further from work, right? It's not just about nine to five, nine to six or whatever, right? Your, your normal working hours, it's meeting with their families. You know, we [00:19:00] had, um, you know, family day and sort of bring your, uh, kids to work or Christmas parties and you suddenly start seeing people in their natural habitat.

So being able to create relationship with, also their families I think is extremely important. Remember what they did yesterday, right? If the, their kid was sick, right? Or the wife is, uh, or, you know, partner right? Is going through, you know, maybe some job process or health issues, whatever.

Just ask about it. 

Leo: Be a nice person does help. 

Elen Barber: just, just be, just be a person, you know, be a good human being. Right? 

Yeah. 

Uh, and I think it's, we all, we always, we all feel, I think great about, you know, being in power, being in charge. And I think, again, it's, it's a normal, you know, human nature. Uh, but let's not get, I think, blinded by that.

Leo: I do think that a lot of people when they first make a, you know, big progress in their career or they step up into a level that perhaps they feel they're not yet ready for, they [00:20:00] feel that.

they've gotta wear a mask almost. Right. They've gotta pretend to be someone that they're not yet because they, they don't believe it themselves yet, perhaps.

Right.

Elen Barber: It's much safer. Right? It's the way how human beings, you know, protect yourself. You put the mask, 

You. 

Go to the party and you have no idea who these people are. So you put a mask that you are really excited, but you know, at the end of the day, right, you, you know, you, you become someone else.

So I think it's a big skill to. Remain yourself, remain true to yourself in different circumstances. And it doesn't mean that you have to be, the same everywhere because you've got to adapt, you know, to the people that you talk to. You've got to change topics. You've got to change, you know, uh, sort of the level of conversation, the type of conversations you have, but don't change your values.

Leo: that's what I loved about you as well. When we first met each other in Lisbon, I thought, you know, you're so natural. Just party with loads of people that we didn't know. And you felt very easy to talk to, easy to adapt to different situations. but has it always been like that for you, [00:21:00] Ellen?

Did you ever feel that you had to put on a mask in maybe as you progressed in your career and that you had to pretend that you were someone that you didn't believe you were yet?

Elen Barber: I think probably early in the beginning, uh, you have to do that. And maybe my, you know, Eastern European also, heritage naturally helps me to put that mask on. Right. You know, people see us as really sort of scary human beings, but you just literally have a, a serious face. Right. You know, when I concentrate and I'm, I've got a really serious fairy face.

, And actually I have to try to put a different mask on, uh, and try to be sort of more, more sort of kind and, uh, sort of welcoming to people. But it doesn't mean that you become fake, right? It means that you, you learn traits that are necessary for your, career development, for the relationship building.

It doesn't mean that it changes your, your, your values. It just, and it it just part of you growing up.

Leo: alright, so then in, I think January, [00:22:00] 2019, you became CMO at, uh, kindred. And within the first few weeks, you get hit by that massive fine. Right. the last question You were saying sometimes you got really bad days, sometimes you got the worst day. Take me, take me back to when that happened. You, you first stepping into that role, uh, obviously as upheaval. How was that, how was that for you? How did you deal with it? 

Elen Barber: It was a horrible time. 

Right. It was like dealing with a massive restructure, Swedish reregulation, quite a few things going wrong when it comes to, sort of financial results.

The, the share price has gone down. And, um, you know, managing, managing restructure, as a result of the fine that we had to do, quite significant, headcount cuts. And you just, it feels like. You are losing it. Um, and, uh, I think it was the most stressful time and probably in, in, in my career, because everything went wrong.

I think it was a big test, like I'm actually able to handle that amount of stress. And, [00:23:00] you know, bad things coming your way. But again, I had, I had an amazing team surrounding me, and you just take one thing at a time. Sometimes you just have to, you just have to say it yourself. You, you know, you've got to be that, you know, scarlet from, you know, gone with the beans.

Like, I'm going to think about it tomorrow. You know, there is one thing I can do and should do right now. It is, and you know, next thing is going to be done tomorrow. And it's step by step creating the plan. I think it's important for the business, but also that's important for, for your sort of mental health, uh, health, um, health.

'cause otherwise, if I'm going to lose it. Then, you know, my team is not, you know, first of all won't know what to do, right. And which direction we are going. And that's the big role of the leader is doesn't really matter how difficult it is, you've got to protect your team and, and make sure that they're focused on things that can make, you know, that can change the situation.

And this is exactly what I think I did. And I think it was a great stepping stone. It [00:24:00] was a great lesson for me, uh, you know, early in the days and, um, sometimes I'm really, I'm really grateful for challenges like this that come my way.

Leo: when you think back to it now, do you, do you remember the days, what was the hardest part of it? 

Elen Barber: I think not knowing what is going to happen tomorrow. Because I think especially when you go through the restructure, you manage the change, you want to give some certainty to people. So there are sort of two big challenges. One is stabilising financial situation, and you need to keep, you know, people motivated and make them work really hard and go the extra mile, maybe an extra 20 miles.

And then the same time, you know that you're, you are, you are, you're doing restructure. So a lot of these people are under risk and they're probably going to have their jobs, but there's going to be in a, in a completely different sort of environment, maybe a change of responsibilities or they're going to step up or step down.

So how do you keep people motivated and making sure that they work hard [00:25:00] while you know that, and they know that they might have a job or might not have a job. So that's, that's one thing. And second is that we had to make probably about three or four alterations to that, you know, structure and cutting the head count and cutting and cutting.

So people will go for the role. And then, you know, a few, you know, couple of weeks down the line because things were just changing so quickly. And at some point you just have to say, we are going to take one day at a time. We are going to work really hard, and then I'll make sure that, you know, we end up in as best situation as we can.

And I think that's what really got me united with, with my team. And so many years down below. We're still in touch. We still have really good relationship because they trusted me. You know, there are so many things that are completely out of our control and we are just doing, uh, you know, we, we are just, we're just trying to survive.

Leo: very difficult time. And, and I love that you just said that, uh, that was a stepping stone, and you learn so much from those challenges and [00:26:00]they forged relationships. Right. They make you so much stronger, which you can't see when you're in the middle of it. Right. 

Elen Barber: yeah, you feel like your sort of, your life is ending. Uh, and it is very difficult. I think with Kindred it was very difficult to, for many individuals to really separate your, sort of, your life, you know, from, from your career because it was really a family. It was important institutions like this to be really objective and, and, and make choices that are right for the business, even if personally, uh, they were quite hurtful.

Leo: Especially because they're so close people that are so close to you and, and you can't do anything about it. What's. Like, let's, let's get a lesson out of this, with the recent increases in, in tax in the uk, you know, there's many businesses that are gonna, that are facing significant challenges as well, and, reestructuring, when you look back now to that period that you've gone through, what some of the, maybe the worst things that you did and some of the best things that you did?

So, some of the things that you wouldn't do again, if you look back now [00:27:00] and some of the things that you would absolutely do again if you would force, if you were forced in, into a similar situation again. 

Elen Barber: you really have to try to take emotions outta the business decisions, because these things do, do, these two things do not work together. So, you know, be extremely objective. And I think, you know, when it, a lot of, a lot of companies have announced the, the head count cuts and there's going to be great people that are going to sort of leave the business.

Think about it as your next opportunity. So it's people that are just hitting the market think as your next opportunity. You think that, okay, I was so happy I did great ops. They didn't value me, but. They might have done, but there is no way that the company can, you know, keep you in the circumstance, in the current circumstances.

So think about as a next step towards, you know, to, towards something bigger and more interesting in your career. I think for, for companies, sometimes you have to make these hard choices and leave the markets, uh, and, but be able to make that decision, the hard decisions. 'cause even in Kindred sometimes we were going [00:28:00] around and you know, like, should we stay here?

Should we go? It's like, yeah, still a couple of million, but the amount of time and effort it takes for the business to run even, you know, operations even for this, you know, couple of million sometimes it's just, you know, just make a hard decision. Just cut that, I dunno, broken hand, uh, broken arm. And just, just, just leave it right and move on 

and 

find an opportunity that is going to be more fruitful.

Leo: Because one of the things at the, at the end of a restructure also means that people have to change, right?

They have to change their, there's way, ways of working, perhaps the roles that they're in. As we all know, some people are very resistant to change, and some people embrace it, right? But as we, as we face challenges in a business and we face challenges with that, we need to work in different ways. So Tell me about someone or a situation where somebody's highly talented, is a high performer, but is maybe stuck in their ways and, and, you know, uh, enabled, unable to change.

How did, how do, how did you deal about that? How did you deal with that? 

Elen Barber: Had a [00:29:00] few examples like that, and some of them were with people that I was really close with. And it was, it was sad, but you've got to let these people go because again, ultimately, you are representing business. And it is important for you to be able to disconnect your personal relationship and professional relationship.

Some people not be able to do it. That's why you end up with businesses where there are sort of, you know, friends, you know, working with friends and it's nothing, nothing bad working with friends, but friends probably will find difficult to challenge you, right? To say that you are wrong because they wouldn't like to lose that friendship as well.

I'm reading the book now about the laws of power. It tells you all about these things, right? You know, how you surround yourself with people, you know, that, that there are sort of rights now how you manage change and how you work with your sort of superiors supporting, not undermining them.

And I think, you know, in this case, you are always going to [00:30:00] have people that, that join you straight away. People that will need in a couple more conversations, but. The key here is to have your door open, especially when you manage a really big transition, really big reorganisation. When you're creating roles or functions that's, that are completely unknown to the business.

So you need to make sure that you spend time with people. It can be, you know, hundreds of hours, right, to explain your vision, but the change always starts from the top. 

So you can be talking about the change, but still not changing the way how you work yourself.

So you change and then you get your team to change and drive that transformation together with you. And there are people that will be resistant to that. And you have to make a decision that you know, if they grow individuals and a great skillset, is there any place in the business that they can that is good for them?

And if there isn't, unfortunately. You know, it's, it's a time to sort of go in different directions. It's a tough conversations that a lot of [00:31:00] leaders, just don't like to have. 

Leo: Yeah. And avoid even, right? 

Elen Barber: yet, and, and you, you end up with this, you know, massive headcount of people that, that is completely out of control and sort of different levels of seniority.

So then when you join the new business and you've been tough to sort of, to clear it up, it's like, how did you actually end up with a structure like this? And you realise, you realise that sort of connections and connections and someone's done a great job here, but actually not really great here. But we're still trying to keep these people because if something happens in the future, they might be useful.

But at this time of the business, I think it's, it's cost. And, you know, where we are, I think at the industry, we, we just can't have any costs like this.

I think it's quite brutal way of saying it. But you know, it's, I think it's both your team and the leaders really need to understand that.

Leo: Yeah. I think it's so important and it's so easy to hold onto people that were high performers before and maybe still Are, but are, resistant to change, especially when the business requires change So thank you for [00:32:00]sharing that. Um, in, uh, on, in May, 2023, For C level execs leave within

Elen Barber: Are, are, are you going through all my traumatic experiences? 

Leo: I will. Is that okay for 

you 

Elen Barber: Yeah. Yes.

Leo: I would love to draw lessons from it, you know, because it's not, they're your experiences and they're your lessons, but they're the experiences that so many of the people that listen to. Go through as well. And I think one of the big problems that we have in our industry, Tom, one of my clients, Tom Galanis he, talked about it, um, said, you know, we go to conferences and we see these people on stage and they talk about like how awesome everything is and how fantastic the business is running. And that's what you see, right? You see the glory and the successes and because that's the mask that people show and it SETS to this bar that you can't reach, right? Because it's not real, it's not reality. The reality is we go through challenges, and those challenges are [00:33:00]actually great because, like you said before, they are our stepping stones, right? They are our lessons. They are the things that make us into who we are today and, uh, the leaders that we are today.

So,

Elen Barber: Yeah,

Leo: so, 

Elen Barber: Think everything was great on the paper, right? When we decided to, you know, to leave Kindred, it kind of looked like a great plan. This life after Kindred, and I'm going to spend time with my family, it's going to be summer. We had, a trip to, to Florida booked. But what I didn't realise that I've been working all my life and I didn't know how to relax.

Um, so I think, you know, very, very quickly, a couple of weeks down the line, I realised that I missed that mental simulation. And we sometimes forget to talk about our families, how difficult for them when you go through this challenge, because I was unbearable, I didn't think it at that time.

And I kept myself, I think as busy as, as [00:34:00] possible. And one of the, great achievements, you know, I went to, I went to Harvard, I did the the executive course there, you know, four months. That really kept me busy. And I, I have no idea how I'd be able to survive that. And I'm very happy to talk about it because I see a lot of people take the sort of career breaks and I said, everything is is roses.

They go and spend time with their families, with their friends. I didn't enjoy it. Didn't enjoy a single moment of it, and I was rushing to go back to, to work. But it's important to be able to relax because again, it's the valuable lessons that this experience, teaches you. I thought that I was dealing with stress quite well, but that was the biggest stress of my life because there was no, I was locked out of, of the market for quite some time and I didn't know what was going to happen.

I'm, you know, someone that likes to plan things and for the first time, obviously I was able to think to, to, to plan things that are in my control, but [00:35:00]nothing beyond that. And I was, after 14 years facing the recruitment market, and I was so loyal to Kindred. I, you know, I didn't practice, I did not have any sort of conversation and suddenly I go, who are these people, that I have to build new relationship with? Now I had, you know, all the time in the world, so what I'm gonna do with it? So I had to create a routine and be really disciplined about my day. And that's actually one of the things that, you know, I spoke to my coach even after that, kind, like, like how do you manage that abundance of free time that you currently have in your, in your day?

So it is critical that you dedicate certain amount of time to your conversations with, you know, with recruitment, agencies, certain amount of time to network, meet people that you used to work with because it's important. Not like your relationship are not tied to work, right? It's important to build something outside of work.

And a lot of people make this, you know, this, this sterile mistake is like when they're out to work, they forget [00:36:00] about everything and then they're, when they're back in the, the new jobs, like, oh yeah, I haven't seen you in, you know, in, um, in six months. So I had a sort of clear structure to my day and I think that really helped me to, to manage that sort of time and sort of stress that I was putting myself through.

Leo: Yeah. Makes a, makes a lot of sense. One of the things that really struck with me, you said as a woman you have to be 

I.

perfect parent, perfect exec, perfect traveler. Why is that, you think, and, and, and when, when is that, that you first kind of started being okay with that?

It's can't all be perfect and, you know, you almost gave yourself permission to let some of that go. 

Elen Barber: Well, I still push myself, right? Because I do want then a lot of things to be sort of perfect at work, you know, in the house. But sometimes you just have, you just have to let it go.

The moment you realise that, you know, you can't do it all. And at certain point of time, it's not that you're being lazy, it's just you have a certain amount of. [00:37:00] Energy or mental capacity to deal at this point of time. And it's acceptance that it's okay, right? You know, uh, talking about the home.

What is going to happen if you're not going to make your meal from scratch, your dinner from scratch, or actually get going to get it from the improve and supermarket or get a takeaway. Nothing. 

Nothing

Okay? You're probably going to get a couple of calories extra, but, but that's it. 

But, the time is going to save you, right?

The stress is going to take from you. It's enormous. So choose your battles, I think wisely. That's key to say, look, you can't be everywhere at the same time you. Have to have sacrifices. And only by being able to choose sort of what are you going to sacrifice at this point of time to be a better version of yourself or to be, uh, a better leader or, you know, be, um, sort of more switch on tomorrow.

I think this is a real, feature, right. Or the skillset that a lot of, a lot of leaders need to have.

I think running obviously is, you know, is a great thing for me, but there are other different [00:38:00] sports, right that help you to release that stress. What I like about running, I started running marathons and it kept me motivated, but also kept me disciplined because there is no way you can run a distance like that without training consistently throughout the whole period of time.

And then the life gets in the way, right? You know, there's a little of work or your training. So how you are able to implement those, of training sessions into your routine

and you have to be consistent. I try to run as far as possible because I know that I have to come back. There is no really way to, to skip it. So, you start, you know, your mind is speeding, right? And you think about this and that, and by sort of third, fourth kilometers, like kinda, that's it, right? Your mind clears and you end, you end up just somewhere like, I dunno, in a, in a, in a free space.

And, uh. You just catch yourself in the moment that, oh, I was here and now I'm there. And then when I, when I catch myself in a moment like this, I [00:39:00]realise, okay, I managed to relax. I managed to disconnect with my problems, disconnect with whatever is happening. And then my mind is absolutely clear. So when I get back to work, I feel more energised and I feel completely objective because all the emotions, right, they're out with sweat.

Leo: Like, this is the other thing that I think most of us learn about exercise is that very often when we are in a high stress situation or a period of, where we need to power through or we need to solve problems, our natural instinct is to just keep working, right?

To just stay at it and to just power through. And when you actually go out and you do something, as you go running, you go exercise, whatever, that's when all the ideas all of a sudden start happening, right? That's where all of a sudden you solve that problem that would've otherwise taken you four hours.

Now you've solved it in an hour because you've been exercising for an hour. 

Elen Barber: You're absolutely right. And yeah, and some, sometimes when I'm, when I'm sort of stressed and sort of overworked, I sort of get headache and I'm just not able to think straight. Right. It is [00:40:00] just, you know, it's overwhelming. 

So. Take a break, just go to bed and then do it in the morning, because you're kind of like pushing through unnaturally, sort of your body to do something that your body doesn't want to do. And it's good to challenge yourself, but listen to your body and you, the outcome, right? You're going to get, after that when it's, when it's rested, right.

When it's full of energy, it is going to give you more things back than at the time when you are really trying to push for the resources that it hasn't got. So I think as, as we all get older, right, we really need to learn to listen to our bodies.

Leo: Yes, for sure. Uh, and learn to recover, which is

Elen Barber: Yeah. 

Leo: Hey, I wanna change

gears.

Uh, a couple of really quick questions. Um, first thing that comes to mind, right? So first question from for me, what's the leadership advice everybody gives that you think is absolute bullshit? 

Elen Barber: I don't think I've ever received any bad advice, or even sometimes when I was given an advice, just let it go. And I found it difficult to let certain things go, and I was still fighting for it. It was actually [00:41:00] a really good advice because, you know, I was maybe reading the room, so I don't think I was ever given a bad advice.

Leo: that's a good answer. I like that. 

Elen Barber: Okay.

Leo: all right, second of all, what's the mistake that you keep making, even though you know better could be personal or professional. 

Elen Barber: I want everything being done right now and as soon as possible to its best ability. And I know it's not possible. And I keep on telling myself, but my, my first intention is always like, you know, let's do everything. And then I calm myself down, you know, and put in perspective, okay, let's, let's break it into pieces.

Like it's not, we're not, we're not going to get it all done, but I want it all, it's all or nothing.

Leo: Yep. Okay. Makes sense. Um, the one thing that you would like to be remembered for? 

Elen Barber: Being a good leader,

Leo: That mean for you? 

Elen Barber: People thinking that I'll always have their back. Someone that can stay true to self, in most difficult situations. But also [00:42:00] someone that has, challenged stereotypes, challenged, sort of traditional ways of working, and broke sort of the boundaries and the silos

Leo: and my last quick question, what's the hardest decision that you've had to make in your career, and what did you learn from it? 

Elen Barber: leave the job that I love, because at that time, that was the right decision, but it also was the most difficult when I left Kindred.

Leo: I have one last question for you that I think will help people that are listening. If you, if you could go all the way back to, you know, your 20 old, 27-year-old self, and tell yourself one thing, what would it be? 

Elen Barber: Keep on doing what you're doing, right. Never give up, 

never stop.

Leo: Thank you so much for the podcast. It's been amazing.

Elen Barber: Thank you very much.