Michael: [00:00:00] If you're looking to enter a market, picking a nemesis is a great way to do it.

One of our competitors had 45 people in their B2B marketing team.

10 to one outspending us.

And we would find ways to subtly mock them, any opportunity.

We promote people who are good at their job. And actually it's so wrong for so many people, because you lose somebody who's good at their job and you might get a shit manager as well. 

I love this stat. Two-thirds of marketers have never had any formal training.

The best hire I made in my marketing team was a risk manager from Amazon. 

Leo: Outside the industry 

Michael: Had about nine months of event management experience. I really took on board the idea that you should hire for your strengths and weaknesses.

We released this piece of PR that was never meant to see the light of day. It wasn't ready to go. And then my timeline is just filled with this. I was pretty angry.

The comments in the group in the WhatsApp chat we have was, "Try and keep calm. Try and keep calm." It was too late. I wasn't asking for people's opinions of whether or not I [00:01:00] should be calm. My mistake, was to go ballistic. And, I had to make my apologies. 

​Leo: Letting people go. It's a really hard part of leadership. The weight of that decision, how you dealt with it? 

Michael: Having to do that face to face is probably one of the hardest things I've done.

You as a leader always have to remember it's not about you

"I feel bad."

"I hope you..."

It's not about you, is it?

It's about them.

I know plenty of people go "Oh, well, it's just business." Fine. Okay. You can be that type of leader if you want. I chose not to be that person. 

Leo (2): Hey, welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast I'm your host, Leo Judkins, founder of iGaming Leader Mastermind. And on this show, I sit down with some of the most inspirational and forward thinking leaders in our industry diving into the real challenges, high stakes decisions and lessons. That shape our industry

If you are a VP Director or an Executive in iGaming this podcast is built for you.

Before we dive in, a quick thank you to our sponsor Sum Sub, the full cycle verification platform. Trusted by top iGaming operators worldwide, sum sub [00:02:00] helps onboard players quickly stay compliant and prevent fraud all without slowing growth.

More information in the description. . 

Leo: Hey everybody, welcome to the iGaming Leader podcast. I am here with Michael Baker Moseley, ex-Kambi, ex-CMO at IGP, one of the most influential and, well thought of marketing consultants in the industry. Often cited as a top 10 marketer and, ambassador for our iGaming Leader Mastermind. Uh, Mike, great to have you here.

Welcome to the podcast. 

Michael: Well, thanks for having me. Been waiting for this invite

Leo: when we first met was in this smoking area at SBC Lisbon, right? And, we were just, like, hanging around. 

Michael: We're trying to stop people from smoking. We're saving lives

Leo: Yeah. we were, we were helping everyone. And, um, we had never met before, but we started talking, and You described yourself as a completely different person, on the last recording that we had than the person that I met in that smoking [00:03:00] area in Lisbon. I'd love to talk a little bit first about what's different now versus when I met you back then

Michael: Yeah. So, I think I hadn't even completed my one year at IGP. and I had gone from, head of brand at, Cambi, and then thrust into the CMO role at, at IGP. which was just a fantastic experience. I think I was completely prepared for the marketing side, but I I think that the step up to CMO, that C of running a business, I had-hadn't been prepared for at all.

it was a wonderful, brilliant experience , but, I was trying to track that, recovering from surgery, I think my youngest wasn't even one at that point as well, and I think that person compared to the person now, everything from, how you handle situations, the experience of running a business, uh, a-as well as marketing, you know. Mastermind had a huge amount of influence in that. it was what I needed at [00:04:00] that moment in time. but those two people are very different people

Leo: if you look back now and you look back at yourself, . would you expected that you would've been here, like from a career perspective, from a, you know, whatever it is for you, confidence, skills, all of that, right?

Like, would you have expected such a transformation in such a short period? 

Michael: I think what's changed is when I went into the role... Now, I love marketing. I absolutely love it and are a big, proponent for it. and I've always looked at marketing at how it extends into the business realm.

But, but sitting on the management team at IGP gave me a completely different viewpoint. it allowed me to extend the idea of, of growth of marketing far beyond my controllable remit further depth into the business. You know, this is looking at the strategy, the culture, everything from project management to the product, and how it touches everywhere.

I think theoretically I knew that. But I think being part of [00:05:00] a mastermind and, the transition and, working with other senior people, other experienced leaders, really gave me the confidence to dive deeper. and I think that, for a lot of people that's quite a big gap, What, what do we do in all organizations? we promote people who are good at their job and actually it's so wrong for so many people because, you lose somebody who's good at their job and you might get a shit manager as well. 

and that actually that happens more, more often than we actually care to admit. you know, be good at what I do and then dive into the business as a first time C-level, it's exactly what I needed to do

Leo: Love it. it's true, isn't it? we promote our best, leaves a gap behind them, then that best person starts micromanaging because there's such a gap and you're kind of left to sink or swim. also, I think there's nothing that can really prepare you for that, that first step into that seat of C-level, right?

It's very different And also I bet for you from going from Kambi to IGP also organizationally as in [00:06:00] culture and what that look- size, all of that is very different as well, right? 

Michael: Well, yeah, I s- I spent the first year telling the team that we were driving the car and building the car. Which I'm not big on corporate phrases, but I think that literally is my favorite one.

Leo: I love it. you said something that stuck with me, about your time at Kambi where you said you weren't a great manager back then, but you became one.

at IGP. is there a specific moment where you realised that, you had to step into this new version or that there was a version of you that perhaps wasn't good enough yet? 

Michael: I think there's two sides of it. O-one, if I'm honest, I stayed around at Canby for too long. You know, I should have left a year earlier. You know, my mission, my growth had sort of come to an end in terms of what I wanted to achieve.

I when I, when I got to, to IGP and I was, in a different seat, it really dawned on me that I had passionate people who were good at their job. and I felt the responsibility far more to ensure they had the opportunity to what [00:07:00]I've-- call in marketing great work or great marketing work, you know.

thoughtful, intelligent, penetrating, strategic work that's gonna position IGP the way we wanted it to, right? and, I inherited and built the team at IGP. so I felt the responsibility far more, 

Leo: I wanna talk a little bit more about building that team at IGP. We've spoken about it a lot during your time there, right? About hiring and who to hire and what to delegate and all of the things, the headaches that come with it as well.

So tell me a little bit more about decision-making around who to hire, when to hire, and what to hire for, specifically in marketing, PR, uh, and commercial. Like how have you gone about that, and what are some of the things that learnt in growing that team initially? 

Michael: I've said this before, the best hire I made in my marketing team was a risk manager from Amazon. 

Leo: Outside the industry, which is great, 

Michael: outside the industry, yeah, had about nine months of event management [00:08:00] experience. but I really took on board the idea that you should hire for your strengths and weaknesses.

And, Anna Sterling, our head of events turned out to be one of the best hires I think I've ever made in my life. and the reason for that is because she was able to do a depth of detail, not that I'm not incapable of, but you know, when you are strategically trying to move a whole team, you can't get involved in.

So, you know, I was looking for someone organized, someone passionate, someone who cared about the details to complement, my strategic approach, my, creativity, my, ambitions for what we were trying to do in the business, as well as give me the ability to be involved in the business as well.

Like I did some fantastic projects outside of marketing within IGP, which I couldn't have done [00:09:00] without the team there. I think that was a key hire. you know, but within there as well, PR was a constant issue, shall we say. You know, and eventually we found someone really good.

And, the big thing there was getting somebody who not only understood, the product and the industry, but somebody who understood new media. 

Leo: Yeah 

Michael: I mean, it's not even new anymore, but I think people still call it that, you know. I think this is the only industry where, people are still writing at length 1,500-word articles.

I don't know who reads them, if I'm honest. 

Leo: I remember that article that Jovi did, right? I think it was in IGB about, the decisions that you're making at the top as a CEO, and I, it's, I thought it was brilliant. You know, all the content around it. But you're right, it's a long form piece and, unless it really keeps you tied in, nobody has time for that, 

Michael: and it's part of the mix, but it's not the sole mix. and I think, you know, I love this stat. Two-thirds of marketers have never had any formal training 

Leo: Hmm. 

Michael: I've hired a risk manager for Amazon, but it's true. Two-thirds of [00:10:00] marketers have never had any formal training.

and this goes down to, why marketing, can be seen as a bit of a lightweight, as a bit of a joke, because the majority of people working in the industry, or working in the profession, don't use language like strategy, don't use language like growth, don't use language, that penetrates at the board level, right?

when I took the opportunity at IGP and I took that title, I really wanted to, show what marketing could be beyond a social media post. So the people that we hired were great at their part of their job, but they also understood what the rest of marketing did.

and that's, everything from, the brand marketer we had, our PR and content guy, the events, product marketing. They were building systems within a wider system. so, if I wanted to, I could be the type of person who read, I don't know, a hundred social media posts, a hundred articles, watched every video.

you know, people would say to me, "Oh, great post." I hadn't seen it. [00:11:00]I don't know what you're talking about. Not because I wasn't interested, because that's the point of hiring a team so that we could do other stuff

Leo: I actually love that, Mike, because so many of us, we hire, like you said, strengths and weaknesses. We realize that that's the case. also realize that we've got to hire to free ourselves up for other things, you know, higher value tasks perhaps that only we can do, right?

So that's big part of delegation. But then because we're passionate about the things that we're delegating, right, those specific areas, we somehow stay involved too much, right? We keep our fingers inside of it too much because A, it's comfortable, B, it's something you really enjoy, And C, letting go of that thing that's comfortable and that you really enjoy and that you're probably really good at feels very risky as well because it's never gonna be done as well as you did it before.

Michael: And don't get me wrong, it goes wrong. 

Leo: Yeah, 

Michael: Do, do, you remember... 

Leo: me a little bit about that. 

Michael: do you remember that, um, message I sent into the group? It was the first Monday of my [00:12:00] holiday for two weeks off, and I hadn't really had a proper break.

And we released this piece of PR that was never meant to see the light of day. well, I mean, eventually it was, but it wasn't ready to go. And then my timeline is just filled with this. I mean, obviously, New Age management, we are all calm and collected at all times. But, I was pretty angry.

I think the comments in the group were... in the WhatsApp chat we have was, you know, "Try and keep calm. Try and keep calm." I mean, it was too late. I mean, I wasn't asking for people's opinions of whether or not I should be calm. It was too late. I mean, look, don't get me wrong, my mistake, was to go ballistic.

and, I had to make my apologies. but equally, you know, if for three hundred and sixty-four days of the year, you get somebody working independently who's at the coalface and can anticipate what's going on, and for one day you have a blowup, and most blowups are normally solvable.

Not all, but most are. isn't that worth trading for?

Leo: yeah, it's difficult and sometimes the problem with that is that sometimes there are also... When things go wrong and you've [00:13:00] given it a try with letting go, that's sometimes the proof that you feel you needed validates that you shouldn't let go, and it's actually the opposite, right?

Michael: There were unnecessary controls in there that I put in place when I came back. 

but they were, they were relaxed pretty quickly, uh...

Leo: and downs 

Michael: Yeah, well, as a leader sometimes you have to get over yourself, don't you? I mean, most leaders are quite far up our own arse.

Leo: let's talk a little bit about the other side of that. So you also had to let, parts of the team go, right? walk me through that. uh, the reason why I'm asking is because for most leaders, you obviously al- you already know about it before you actually communicate it, right?

Letting people go. It's a really hard part of leadership. the weight of that decision, the burden of, still having to talk to someone that you know you have to let go of it's just not been announced yet. can you talk a little bit through that period of time and how that went for you, and what some of the challenges were, and, how you dealt with it? 

Michael: I've had the full experience condensed into, almost three years, right? I'll tell you what it did do. It really [00:14:00] enforced in me that we had the right team in place. And I'll tell you what, dignity and the, approach of these people when...

you're letting them go, was truly inspiring, and it really reinforced that, we had great people. and I think, but from a personal, self, especially when you're running at a hundred miles an hour, you're, you know, you're really core on mission.

You all believe in what you're doing, and you're working side by side together to do that. know, having to do that face to face is probably one of the hardest things I've done. but I think that, you know, you as a leader always have to remember it's not about you and what I mean by that is, I think too often it's how I'm really sorry.

I feel bad. I hope you... It's not about you, is it? It's about them. and I know plenty of people go, "Oh, well, it's just business." fine. Okay. But you You can be that type of leader if you want. I chose not to be that [00:15:00] person, you know? 

So, this is about, can I help them? What can we do?

This is the situation. I would say as well though, I was always far more transparent with my team than I probably was meant to. so I don't think it was a complete shock. 

Leo: it's one of these things, Mike. what you're just saying, it reminds me. Remember that of the crying CEO on LinkedIn? 

reminds me of that, right? Like, the guy went, "Oh my God, I'm so s-..." Like, "It was the hardest thing I ever did," and made it all about him. right after having let go, I don't know what percentage of his team. post came up again last week. I saw it somewhere. But, it's true. yeah, it's gotta be about them because it's their roles. but there is a, an element. It, it's that whole lead-up period that makes it really hard, and you just said, having to do that face-to-face was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Why 

Michael: because, 

Leo: so hard? 

Michael: there's an element that, I'd let them down. You know, these are people that I hired. I brought into a situation. 

optimistically, we were always gonna push through. It was all gonna be a success. [00:16:00] Unfortunately, not everything can be. You know, sometimes you take a risk, and the risk doesn't come off.

that's just the nature of the beast, right, of a risk. but these were people even during uncertainty who were showing up every day. And, and I think, you know, it's far easier to dismiss someone who isn't performing or isn't the right fit or isn't working. but like I said, we built something very special.

And, and the work showed as well. I mean, we were kicking ass. But, we had a smaller team, we had a smaller budget, but we were, springing up on people's radars that, we shouldn't be. We were getting into commercially in the room with with companies, against companies that have been in the industry ten, twenty years, you Uh, we had no right to be there, and, and a lot of that is what we were able to, produce, the messaging, the look, you know, the positioning especially. and then having to, I think as well let these people go that for stuff that is not necessarily their fault 

it, it cuts and I think, you know, going back to running the business, a-a-and being part of that management [00:17:00] team, you know, I must bear some responsibility for that myself.

Maybe I didn't speak up in the right time. Maybe I looked at the wrong projects. all of that stuff goes through your head. But unfortunately, the culmination of that stuff is, " Sorry, this hasn't worked out the way that we planned, uh, so we've gotta go."

You know, I never said I had a, I had a great time. I learned lots. Great experience. got to experiment, expand my role, expand my remit.

But, the other side of it is, ah, didn't all work out. 

Leo: there's something there that you-- that is super, super interesting for people listening here, which is that you... the PR angle of it, right? you outperformed brands. You got in a room with, businesses that, punching above your weight essentially, right? brands with bigger teams bigger budgets. Why is that, you think? where does a big marketing budget actively make a company worse at marketing or vice versa? Where does a small budget actively make a company

better at marketing? 

Michael: well, I, I think... So [00:18:00] there's a dirty word in marketing. We're not allowed to talk about it anymore, because we're all finance professionals actually. but it's creativity. The way I view creativity is, is not... Yes, there is a certain amount of creativity of, of, I don't know, a, a design on the page. But really I view it as problem-solving All right, so if you, if you view creativity as problem-solving, and this is the question that, I posed at IGP.

How do we get the business onto the buyer's list? And that-that's all that, all that matters, especially with platform though. 

Leo: Yeah 

Michael: Of the three companies, three or four companies that they call, how do we make sure that we're one of them? So if you start there with that sort of problem, and then you use the toolkit behind that, you know.

so yes, we'll use PR, yes, we'll use brand and things like that. But once you start with that problem, you can then really break it down. You know, so there is noise, there's a competition for noise. Who can break through? Who could do stuff that people are gonna find interesting?

Everything from, the constant [00:19:00] stream of product releases, how we did it, how we built it, how we packaged it, to, just standing out that, if you saw Purple, we wanted to be purple. they're not aesthetic choices, it's positioning choices.

And I think so many... If you look at ten different platform websites, and they all pretty much say the same thing. So how do you differentiate between any of them if you're a buyer? Well, the one you pick is probably, EveryMatrix or, or someone like that because they're top of mind.

You know, of course, you'd, wanna put a brand onto a shortlist. but your, your other choice is trying to do positioning which isn't generic, that actually tries to break through. all platforms do multi-language. all platforms do multi-cur-currency.

Wow! Mind-blowing stuff. so w- what do you, uh, break through? So, you know, we, were talking about the way that we were building products. we, we're talking about coding languages. We were talking about the ethos and the, philosophy behind what we build and how we build.

You know, [00:20:00] we were promoting the individuals. we did, for a little short time, we did something called Diary of the CEO, where operators would send in questions with SBC. 

really cool stuff, that was both about trying to break through the noise, but then also, if you don't have the money to be the loudest, then your message has to do the hard work for you

Leo: marketing just helps make sales easy, right? And, uh, I think it's, such a key point. one of the other things I think it really does, your approach, is it helps, in terms of leadership, it helps get your team behind something, right? It helps create common enemies. It helps them fight, fight their corner, Is that how you

perceived it as well and how perhaps you 

Michael: Yeah, 

Leo: that 

Michael: absolutely. I mean, But one of our competitors had 45 people in their B2B marketing team. They were, 10 to one outspending us And we would find ways to subtly mock them at any opportunity.

and so actually, so, you if you're looking to enter a market, picking a nemesis is a [00:21:00] great way to do it. Now, we weren't overt, but there is a way that you can go overt and really attack someone, but that's positioning.

You've positioned yourself at, that I'm against everything that person is. It's a great way, to go into a new market. and I think as well, you know, I love this term at the moment, rented audience. 

Leo: Mm-hmm. 

Michael: So much of what happens in B2B marketing at the moment is rented audience.

if you think about it, this is about if you do paid media, so if you do paid media with SBC or IGP or whomever, and you put a, a-an advert on there, or you put an editorial in there, you're renting their audience. You're paying them for their traffic, right? And it's no different than Google Ads, no different to an affiliate.

I mean, e-even an SEO, or GEO strategy, you're relying on somebody else. and I think IGP and what someone will do, it really hammered down, for me the idea that, to get real value out of marketing, anyone can shove an ad on. It's fine. But to build [00:22:00] long-term value for a business and for marketing to be proving its worth, it needs to be building brand, building its own audience, owning the audience itself.

This is why You know, SEO is now being disrupted by AI. But the amount of algorithm changes that Google have gone from, LinkedIn is going through now. we talk about this, what works, what doesn't work, and I know there's a lot of expert, but no one really knows.

You know, if A-AI, as it gets cleverer, cleverer, is gonna probably beat some of the cheap GEO t-tricks that people are just recycling from, twenty years ago when SEO was first becoming a thing. but you're under complete, command of someone else. hence renting your own audience.

But even then, even if everything's working, it's never gonna be the brand where they go, "I'm looking for X. Ah, that's X brand. They're on the shortlist." That process took sixty seconds. Unless you're that brand or trying to be that brand or the second, [00:23:00] third, or fourth brand that somebody can think in their head, y-you, you are always...

Your entire way of monetizing your business is always at risk because Google, ChatGPT, whomever, just change how they do it

Leo: Yeah, and all of that is brand. and it's the biggest, mistake that, CFOs and CEOs make when it comes to marketing spend, right? so will you talk, talk a little bit more about that ROI of brand and, how long it builds up and, and why there's always an argument to be made in a sea of sameness to actually invest in branding?

Michael: but this is where I think marketers don't help themselves because fine. It is about being taken seriously at a board level. Now, talking to, to the chairman, I'm never gonna go, " Hey, look at this, uh, this wonderful little, I don't know, "the thing we produce." because that's not where, their head's at. But I think what marketing should be doing with that audience is that marketing stopped, especially in B2B, stopped ow-owning [00:24:00] key intelligence. I mean, our name, marketing, We should own market. Now, that is market dynamics.

That's customer intelligence. how many marketers go out there and just go talk to the customers? Scarily few. But you should. you know, marketers should go out there and, "What do you hate about us? What do you love about us?" Uh, you should be doing research. And so all of a sudden, you then go into these conversations owning the customer.

so it's not about getting bogged down in arguments about ROI, w-which is fine. Look, we don't live in an isolated bubble, right? Money needs to turn into more money. But if the sole contribution of marketing is to turn, marketing investment into ROI, and we all know attribution is impossible to a certain degree.

You know, the, the classic I clicked on a, you know, somebody clicks on a Google ad, and then they converted, and the CFO goes, "Why don't [00:25:00]you do that?" But that digital click hasn't captured the article they read, the advert they saw, the sales rep they'd spoke of, the online demo that they watched on YouTube, or even the TikTok charity thing that, we did for internal stuff. the ad was the final bit. and we don't make that argument.

We go, "Oh, oh, I'm sorry, CFO. Uh, yeah, we'll do more of that." And then the inevitable happens when all the empirical evidence out there, all the marketing discourse says that that approach is the wrong approach, it's a short-term approach. And actually, I, I think that, you know, is why in so many industries, especially in B2B, you have major players and you have bit players.

You know, somebody who actually invests in growth, the full mix, lets marketing do what they should do, which is inform, be, the bridge between the business and the market and everything that entails. You know, they hands down win, and then the rest of them are, smaller [00:26:00] players, who are nine times out of ten renting their audience, 

But they're the ones who go through the CMO every five months. They change agencies every six months. their best salesperson is the person who answers the leads first. they're not the ones which are, dominating a region, growing market share. They're just part of the market

Leo: if you'd go back to when you first stepped into that CMO role, and you'd be able to, I don't know, go back in time, have a little chat with yourself, what's a piece of advice you would give yourself when you first stepped into that CMO role? 

Michael: I think there's a couple of things. I would have stamped. My vision, onto the business a lot harder as a whole. And when I mean that, I mean board level and management. So what was my vision for the brand, but also for the business?

And I didn't do that really for about a year. that was about being embarrassed to take that sort of stuff to a board, where in hindsight, that [00:27:00]conversation w-was far more than I gave it credit for. And, and I think, you know, I'm not saying that my vision was the company vision, but it was, you know, going back to market and marketing, it definitely was my role to

talk to the business, the senior, the, the board and, and, and, and, and whomever about IGP's position within the industry and where we wanted to be and what we wanted to own and what we wanted to build a moat around. and it-- that's about the depth. That's about, you know, being a, a marketer who's good at marketing, and then that's being a marketer who's part of the leadership team within the business.

it, it would have made everything we did that much more powerful

Leo: thank you very much. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you wish I would've asked you, as a final piece to this brilliant podcast with you? 

Michael: Now, do, do we, [00:28:00] we should briefly just talk about the ambassador role

Leo: Okay. so last question then. Um, you joined the, you joined the mastermind, well over a year ago and agreed to become an ambassador for, for something that probably most people would kinda quietly benefit from, I suppose. why, why put your name to it? what was it that you felt, made you put your hand up to become an ambassador and actually, made it worth advocating for?

Michael: I think it's-- it is my, my, my own experience, you know. yeah, in mind, mind and body, I had a transformational year. and I ended up, like, I sit on a board for, for, for a startup. now, you know, in the smoking area, saving lives, uh, to, to, to, to joining a board. about that.

That would have been insane if you had said that to me there, right? and not just health benefits and, and confidence benefits and, and, and all that sort of stuff. You know, being around other leaders who have doubts is amazing. And I think, you know, th-there's two [00:29:00] sides of, of Mastermind. There are those who need help, and there are those who are put into a position where they're not fully prepared, and they could do with help.

the opportunity to, make it accessible to those groups is, for me, quite important. there's nothing worse than the idea of somebody being isolated with, negativity or indecision when actually there are avenues for help.

think how few boards there are in this industry, right? So the CEO has their management team to talk to, and there's always gonna be stuff that a CEO can't talk to them about. They don't have a board, or they have an owner who definitely is not gonna be there to, to listen to those things, right?

it's the same for most C-suite. There's gonna be stuff that they can't talk to their team about and they can't talk to their CEO about. so I think, for me, this is why Mastermind's great

Leo: Love it. Thank you very much, Michael. Great podcast. Really enjoyed talking to you, 

Michael: Thanks, Leo

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