Jovana Popovic Canaki: [00:00:00] I was doing a presentation on a monthly basis in front of the executive board of a publicly listed company that had 7,000 employees

That was the first for me, and of course I didn't feel hmm okay we're going to do it. Of course, I felt intimidated. 

​Jovana Popovic Canaki: It was such a down. It was like from a hundred up to a minus a hundred down. And it happened in the lobby of the hotel, which is like the last place that you imagine is going to happen. 

Spending four hours with the police and understanding that I'm never going to see any of my belongings ever again, More importantly, my documents. 

As an expat, you can appreciate that it's not the easiest thing to recover

It got me thinking of these highs and lows in leadership. How do we handle those, and do we talk enough about them? 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I'm not just CEO of iGP. I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a friend.

So that balance that everyone talks about is kind of completely ruined. Am I going to finish writing this email or reading this contract versus sitting down with my [00:01:00] daughter and doing her homework, or cooking a meal for the family, or calling my dad that I haven't heard or had a conversation with for the last two weeks? 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: ​I was always a straight A student. But then my first exam on the MBA, I failed it. I miserably failed it. 

I was talking to my boyfriend at the time and I was crying, and he was like why are you crying? Why are you so upset? What do you think? You're studying this and you're going to be this big boss one day? You're going to be a director somewhere?

No. you are going to be a personal assistant to some CEO or finance director and you are going to be making coffees or teas for them.

Immediately my tears disappeared and I said: you know what? I am going to be a manager one day, the one I want to be. And I'm going to make my own coffee, I don't need a PA

You just need to do what you believe in.

Leo Judkins: Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast, where we uncover the human side of [00:02:00] some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and as an ex iGaming director term performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain 3, 6, 5, flutter, and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. 

In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said, let's dive in.

Leo Judkins: Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. I'm here with Jovi, Popovich podcast. She's the CEO for IGP.  been in the industry for a long time, 17 years. Super inspiring story and trajectory that she's gone through. Obviously, one of the very few female CEOs. in B2B especially. And, we met for the first time on your stand in, in Lisbon, which was [00:03:00] awesome. Really, enjoyable conversation.

And, welcome to the podcast. Really looking forward to talking today.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Hi, Leo. Well, thanks for having me.  yeah, we did meet, for the first time, which is very, unusual.  nowadays, we meet people online for the first time, not in person, right? But our story, our story started completely different. And I'm, I'm also super excited to be here. I mean, I've, I've never done, anything like this.

So let's see how it goes today.

Leo Judkins: so Michael, just for context for everybody, Michael's the CMO at IGP and he shared, that article that you had on, on IGB about, the loneliness of leadership and, like it so reinforced some of the things that we talked about in Lisbon as well, on how much of an authentic leader you are and how you openly share.

We even spoke about it just before we started recording about how some people felt that sometimes you overshare. all super cool, but that's what, that's what I'm most excited about because I think, we have so much,  [00:04:00] inauthenticity in the industry and it's, yeah. Having PE leaders like you, who actually openly share about the struggles, I think is really important.

So, that's something I'd like to start with, if that's all right. Jovi is, In the beginning of that article, you were talking about, the situation you had in Bara, tell us a little bit more about that and kind of what made you lead with that piece of vulnerability in such a, you know, such a, such a big article.

Such a big, big, big news item.

Jovana Popovic Canaki:  we all know, you know, how, how these expos go and conferences and we meet so many people and we are really, most of us at least are on the high when, when, when the, when the event ends. So it really, it really, hurt me in a way, not, you know, physically or something, but it stroke me more as a better word.

Jovana Popovic Canaki:  it was such a down, it was like from a hundred up to a minus a hundred down.  and it happened in the lobby of the hotel, which is like the [00:05:00] last place that you imagine is going to happen. I think I mentioned it in, in my article, it wasn't about the things you can replace the material stuff, you know, but, I give you an example.

I, I had a small wallet that I've been looking for years exactly like that, of that size of, you know, that capacity and so on. And then, and then it was gone. So then, you know, spending four hours with the police and understanding that I'm never going to see any of my belongings ever again. More importantly, my documents, As an expat.  you can, you can appreciate that it's not the easiest thing to recover. but it, it got me thinking of, you know, these highs and lows in, in leadership. And how do leaders, managers, team, leads, doesn't matter. So even if you lead one person, your team is one person, you're still a manager and a leader, right?

How do we handle those and do we, do we talk enough about them? So, I had four hours of, of thoughts in the, in the police station [00:06:00] and then also, quite a journey back home. Barcelona is, you know, Europe, but Barcelona to Malta seems almost like a flight to New York, to Frankfurt.

Leo Judkins: Takes forever. And it's,   such a wonderful source For anybody listening, I would highly recommend reading, reading it.  that's where the, the, the story opens. But of course it goes about like the loneliness of, of, and the isolation of leadership at the top. And, I mean, one of the one of the things that you talked about is, I, I've got the quote here, thought of a simpler, less demanding path, always lingers in my mind.

And I often ask myself, is it all worth it? Why do I do this? And I thought that was so amazing. And it's, it's, I bet it's a question that many people struggle with. It is, it's something that you, yeah. When, when's the last time you kind of thought about that? When's the last time that you, that, went through your head?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Every time we're in the budgeting season.

Leo Judkins: I bet 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I, I can't really recall when was the last time I, I, [00:07:00] I thought about it. I don't think there is any pattern. it just comes and, and goes. And, I guess it, it comes in the, you know, in the periods of life when, when you are, when I am overwhelmed, not just by work, you know, I'm not just a, I'm not just CEO of iGP I'm a, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a friend.

I'm a daughter, I'm a sister. So, you know, as many roles, that, that, that we have, we're not just people in the, you know, working for a company or owning a company and so on. it's, I guess in those moments when, That balance that everyone talks about, which in my opinion doesn't exist, is kind of completely ruined when you know, in between am I going to, you know, finish,  writing this email or reading this contract versus sitting down with my daughter and, doing her homework or cooking a, a meal for, you know, for the family or calling my dad that I haven't heard, or had a conversation with for the [00:08:00] last two weeks.

or cleaning the apartment or, you know, putting the, the window robot on. I guess these are the moments. It's like, Hmm, okay, so I should find time for this. You know, I, I should be able to do all of it

Jovana Popovic Canaki: really. And, and, um. I remember as a kid, I, well, as a kid, as a teenager is, time management was a big thing.

It was a new thing. And then also in, you know, in, in uni we dedicated a lot of time to time management and, it's like, it's just time management, but, but it's not, you know, because you do not control all the things that come your way at every single point of time. So I guess, is it worth it? Is it all worth?

It is, is, a question I ask myself In the moments when, from every area of my life, things come in where I, I need to do something.

Leo Judkins: I also agree with you, the whole balance thing is so over. [00:09:00] Overrated. It's over marketed, right? It's over talked about, because all know, especially like if a conference season, there's no such thing as balance. It just doesn't, it's just not going to happen. And even holding yourself to some sort of work life, Ballance, it's an expectation you won't be able to fulfil.

So when you, when you think back, when you think about those kinds of, not just the conferences and the intensity, but like you said, you know, in all aspects of your life as a wife, as a, as a partner, as a mother as a sister, as daughter, like, what are some of the things that you feel had to sacrifice on or had to do less of to achieve the, the progress that you've had?

And we will talk a little bit about that progress in a bit.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I like the question because funny enough, I was asking, Myself quite some years ago, well, actually when my daughter was born and after the maternity leave, I came back to, to work.  I was searching for that balance and I couldn't find it. And then, my husband sat me down at the [00:10:00] table. He took a for, a size paper, and he drew, an image that is still very vivid in my, in my, head.

He's not an artist. He draws horribly, but you know, the, the graphic is still there. So he drew circles. He drew a circle in the centre, which he named, you know, Jovi. And then he drew a couple of other circles. our daughter. Well, our family himself, friends, you know, my parents and brother and so on.

So kind of the rest of the family and, and work. Okay. and then he kind of said, look, you have 24 hours in a day. You can't equally apportion for each of these circles. Enough minutes. You cannot, so you'll have to choose. So that really changed my perspective, on, on what balance in life is. I think that we can achieve the balance if we look over a longer period of [00:11:00] time.

If you look at it on the, on the yearly, yearly kind of scale there, you can find the balance. You know, you go away for a vacation for three weeks and you, and you have some rest, and that's, these three weeks are then only dedicated to your family. So, to answer your question, I, I, I can't say that I sacrificed something completely, but, there were periods of, of life and, you know, within my career when I had to sacrifice one or the other thing, from silly example, you know, for a year I was not doing, manicure.

But that is, you know, for, for the male, audience, they would, they that would not know. It's one hour and a half every three weeks. So an hour and a half every, every month that I would use. You know, for something else and stuff like that. For a year I sacrificed my career during maternity leave for staying with my daughter fully, a hundred percent not [00:12:00] doing anything else.

So this is, I can't say as, you know, I sacrifice this a hundred percent and I'm pretty sure that, you know, going forward there will be periods of time when I will sacrifice something more than, than the other thing, you know, friends not seeing them as much as I used to in my twenties, or, you know, parents not calling them every Sunday by calling them once, every two weeks and stuff like that.

So this is where then I, I find the balance. It, it helped me a lot.

Leo Judkins: you spoke about that as well, right? Where just, I mean, it, it requires a lot of sacrifice and I, you're right. You know, when you, at the moment it feels like that, and when you zoom out, perhaps you find that you see more balance in, in that area. before we started recording, we, we were also talking about expats and, us being expats and being parents and not having that family support and having, having to balance all those areas at the same time.

that is a lot. Right. And like, how have you, how have you found that throughout your,  career, Jovi? Have you [00:13:00] found it, like at this time when you're now CEO or as you were progressing towards that level, where, where have you found that most challenging and, have you become wiser as, as you got older with like finding, like, being happy with where you are?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I know I'm gonna sound, very cheesy, but I found, you know, content and happiness in every stage. of the career that I, that I had, I believe that each of those stages led me to where exactly where I'm supposed to be. that is, you know, every company I worked for, every role that I took and I had many, I started as a customer support agent.

You know, my entry into iGaming was basically getting a job, not even knowing that it's iGaming. So I was, I was supposed to be, a financial auditor, financial controller, and at the same time, all these different roles that I took, I, I, I really cherish them.

I, I literally enjoyed [00:14:00] every single one of them. Some a bit more, some a bit less. I mean, you know, I did work for like six months, as part of customer support, but I was assigned to work in the Department of Telemarketing. So I'd be doing night shifts and,  cold calling, Canadian and Australian players.

It is not really a phenomenal job and not something that you would enjoy, you know, spending 2, 3, 5, 10 years. But even that taught me, a lot more than, than many others. It, it taught me, humbleness, I was alone, in the office. I remember it was cold. there was no heating in that office.

The office was in the basement. it was night shift, so no one to talk to, besides, you know, really doing the thing, doing your job, making a, a cup of tea just to, you know, warm yourself up. I was literally sitting in a jacket, you know. So, today when I sit in, you know, this beautiful office of IGP, with, [00:15:00] with the, with the view, I know you can't see it, but, there is a there's a beautiful view outside, even though it started, the storm started and there's,  horrible rain.

I appreciate it more. I do. And, what made me happier? I don't know. I guess, as I said, every, every bit of it, had its beauty in it.

Leo Judkins: I think that's amazing and it's such an important piece of it. I think that's really what forms you as a person as well. You have appreciation of what it's, what it feels like right at every level. does that translate back into kind of how you lead the team and how you work with the, the rest of the company? Does it make you a different leader, you feel?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: it might, make me maybe not a better leader, but, closer to, to everyone else, leader. because it's kind of, I did that pass, the same as they, they did, you know, from, from both kind of this appreciation of where we are today, but also to the [00:16:00] to the knowledge and expertise. it is much easier for me to have a conversation about tech with the CTO and about product with the CPO.

throughout, you know, all these roles, I had many more touchpoints than if I would, just, you know, becoming a manager, let's say from scratch or after a couple of years. So our conversations are, are dialogues. They're not monologues, you know, we do, we do talk to each other and brainstorm together.

And this, you know, understanding what they're talking about

Jovana Popovic Canaki: a bit deeper than, then, um. 

You know? and, we have, in IGP, we have, again, I'm going to sound cheesy, but you know, this open door policy and flat organization where we actually do listen to everyone's opinion. and, this is, this is the environment and the culture that I always kind of wanted.

And I find we finally have it here, so it [00:17:00] feels really good.

Leo Judkins: because that also allows you to just hear what's actually going on instead of hearing what people think you want to be hearing, which is what's happens in most organizations. But I also, I'm also like acutely aware that people, like in front of a CEO, people just behave differently, right?

They, some sort of switch happens in people's brains where they start, like, I remember when I was, when in my, one of my first roles in igaming, I just couldn't, like, I couldn't even form normal words, you know, that's maybe a little bit extreme, but know what I mean? And it, and it's, and you know that that happens in front of you as well with probably with current people currently in the business.

So, how do you feel about that in a kind of flat organization and in, open door policy culture? what are some of the things that you do to help kind of break some of those barriers or some of those feelings of, you know, having to perform in front of A CEO?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I asked them, very direct, are you nervous?

Leo Judkins: Great. I love that.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I just do that because, you know, you, you can, you can see that, you can feel it. It's not always that, [00:18:00] you know, people will stutter or not find words. By the way, I was in the same situation many years ago. it can be intimidating. I get it, and I get it because I was in that situation and not once.

So I just break the ice by saying, guys or a person are, are you nervous? There's no reason for you to be nervous. And, and more often than not, they just open and then say, yes, I am nervous. And then, and then we, you know, pause to let's say the topic, of the conversation or the agenda of the meeting or whatever.

And then we go into, why are you nervous? And then we go into and through this, I saw. You know, different fears that, that people have. very often it's about them not wanting to sound stupid or ask something stupid. They want to be at their best in front of C-level or CEO or, you know, their manager.

But, what I always try to explain to those who are receptive of [00:19:00] hearing, and, and learning, is that if you don't do that, you will never grow. If you don't show your weak spots to your manager, to your team lead, they will never help you close those gaps. They will never, you know, help you grow and overcome those fears or, you know, certain, lack of skills and so-and-so forth.

So. It, it, it kind of comes both ways. You know, we, in my article and, and you mentioned it, we speak about this kind of unsaid, loneliness or isolation of, of leaders. because we don't want to show at all times, or not allowed to show at all times our human side and, our weaknesses because we are supposed to be the ones to lead.

And, you know, without fear, with having all the questions, covered, all the answers to all the questions, but then there's also the rest of the organization, they want to, show also their best to be always at their best, you know, so [00:20:00] it's kind of a, it's kind of a two, two-way street. So, again, in my opinion, and this is what I've been doing, is, is just to, just to open it, just to open the topic and, address it, straight.

Leo Judkins: How was it for you then?  Jovi. like, I still remember it very well in my early twenties, feeling like that. Like, What were some of the things that helped you back then to overcome it? Was it just time, or did you, like, was there something different in your mindset on how you approach those conversations? 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I never thought about this. Thanks for bringing it up. I guess I always, knew what I wanted, so I squeezed my teeth and just went through it. there's a funny story, from my personal life. I failed my first exam on the MBA studies.

I was always a straight A student, but then my first exam on the MBA, I failed it. I miserably failed it. And I was talking to my, my boyfriend at the time, and I was crying. [00:21:00] I never got anything, anything less than, B plus,

Leo Judkins: Yep.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: know? and he was like, why are you crying? Why are you so upset? I said, well, I never failed an exam.

And he said, but what do you think you are going to be? You're studying this and you're going to be this big boss. One day you're going to be a director somewhere. No, you are going to be a personal assistant to some CEO or,

Leo Judkins: wow.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: finance director, and you are going to be making, coffees or teas for them.

Leo Judkins: Wow.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: yeah, I was like 19 at the time.No, sorry.  21 or some 20

Jovana Popovic Canaki: but very early. and, immediately my tears,  disappeared and I said, you know what? I am going to be a manager one day, the one I want to be, and I'm going to make my own coffee. I don't need a pa. So we laughed it off, but this sent, and this was before my [00:22:00] first job. So this situation, often was, you know, appearing in my mind.

in the moments when, when I struggled, when I was stuttering or felt intimidated, I just squeezed my teeth and, and went through and, I don't know,  it's not,  really good advice. Yeah. But,  you need to, you just need to do what you believe in, 

Leo Judkins: I think it's fantastic because everything is on, all of your dreams are on the other side of your comfort zone, right? It's crossed that boundary of your comfort zone. It's just, you just gotta do it for long enough for it to no longer be uncomfortable,

Jovana Popovic Canaki: It's exactly what it is. just, we just push through because no good stuff is easy.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: outside of business, take sports, for example, you know, I trained, um. You're going to laugh.

Please don't laugh. I trained chess when I was,  young and I competed in chess. And, people don't call chess sport, but I call chess sport because you need to [00:23:00] train. Yeah. And I had a coach and I was going to tournaments and so on. So it is, it is the same. I wanted to win the tournament.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: it was difficult. It was, you know, mental work. It, I had to memorize.  I was what, seven, eight. I had to memorize, you know, as many combinations as I could to predict. Then also a bit of bluffing,  tactics and so on and so forth. It's not easy, but then you win, you feel great. 

And take any other sport, right? It's no good things.

No dreams come just like that, magically, poof. And, and, and it happened. We, we all need to work for them 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: We're in gaming industry. We know that luck is,  you know, a big factor. there is a bit of that,  but I take luck more as in being lucky to meet some people on the journey, who either you help or they help you, you know, overcome [00:24:00] these type of,  challenges, including the one you mentioned, you know, being intimidated in front of,  I don't know your manager at first,  executive boards five years ago, I, I was doing presentation on a monthly basis in front of the executive board of a publicly listed company, of a company that had 7,000 employees.

So that was the first for me. And of course. Of course, I didn't feel, Hmm, okay, we're going to do it. Of course, I felt intimidated. It's like actors with, you know, 30 years of career, but they still feel a bit of that stage fright, even if it's a bit before they go, on the stage in the theatre to perform.

Because if you don't have that, you don't care. And if you don't care, you cannot, you cannot really pursue your dream. Then your kind of whatever happens is good.

Leo Judkins: it's embracing that, right? It's embracing the fact that, like, your next level just requires you to be unsure and a [00:25:00] little bit messy because of course you haven't figured it out. That's why it's the next level, right?

You haven't done it yet.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Correct 

Leo Judkins: you also spoke about this kinda LinkedIn friendly CEO that's nowadays everybody expects, and you know, like whatever, like is hard sometimes, right? Because there are things that you don't, you can't talk to anybody else about because there are things that only you, you deal with at your level and nobody else in the organization. So how do you, um. How do you deal with those moments? How do you kind of, how do you get perspective, how do you overcome challenges there? Is it, is it the same thing, you just bite on your teeth and you get through it? Or what do you do in those moments where it's really tough and you don't have anybody at your level to, to really discuss that with?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: so what I do, it's,  just a bit, you know, with, with my husband, obviously he's been my mentor for many, many years.

but I try not to [00:26:00] bring, much work home. So it's more of, let's say generic topics and strategical topics, you know, that he helps me with. Then obviously with my, you know, fellow, fellow chiefs from, from other companies within the industry who understand the struggle, who, who can share an opinion, advice, or just listen

Sometimes, you know, just, just listen.

And we do share a lot of these, kind of, same challenges. I, I meditate a lot. I meditate a lot during sleep, so I sleep to a couple of specific frequencies, to clear the mind. And then, you know, sometimes it takes two, three nights for, let's say big stuff, but for, challenges where only I can, or am supposed to address, that are not as big.

one night meditation, normally clarifies the mind. And then in the morning, I more often than [00:27:00] not know what to do. that's maybe, you know, biting the teeth and, you know, going, going through it. But some of the feedback on my article was that, you know, that. They felt that I'm like super lonely.

I'm not super lonely. I have people, I have people around me.  you know, even, even within IGP on management level, we discuss way more than, you know, I bet quite a few other companies don't. it's more of those things. Are you sure you, this is something you want to let out and you want this to be discussed?

Or this is something that you need to kind of solve, within yourself, within, within your mind or within your personality. Because some of the challenges also come from, from ourselves. It's, it can be a fight or a struggle between,  how do they call it? You have an angel and the devil on, on each of your shoulders.

So who's gonna [00:28:00] help you, you know, talk about these things. This is something you need to, solve by yourself.

Leo Judkins:  you told me this beautiful story in,  in Portugal about this all hands meeting and where, you know, you felt like you're the CEO of the company and you've gotta, you've gotta talk to everybody and you've gotta, you're making announcements and, yeah. Then sometimes you feel like you've gotta pretend that you've got it all together, right?

Or not pretend, but you've gotta, like, you've gotta show that you've got it all together. You smile at everybody, you bottle up, bottle it up, maybe you don't even wanna show signs of weaknesses. You wanna share that story. 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: At the moment when it happened, I felt terrified,

but then a couple of seconds after I, I was relieved. So we had the no hands, a quarterly overview, and, as, as usual, I present, you know, as, as it goes from, from financials to clients, to product update, tech update and so on.

at, almost the end, we had the, the marketing update where, you know, where IGP went in terms of expos, media, so on and so forth. And that was just,  [00:29:00] after the SBC summit, Malta, but I, I literally didn't know I was nominated when they announced my name.

On the stage, I was eating chicken and my mouth was full of chicken. 'cause I was so hungry. and I was like, what's going on? You know?  so I went on the stage and, and you know, I, I, I got, um. Award the leader, leader of the year. So, one of the slides was, was about company nominations and awards, and that was, it was there.

And then I remembered, and I'm going to do it again now, that just behind me, I have the actual thing. So, you know, I took it and I've shown it to, to everyone. I said, guys, this is, this is not my awards. You know, this is, this is actually all of yours. This is our award. And you know, it, I, I could have not in got, have got it if, you know, this company would be 1, 1 1-man band.

It's, you know what, because what we achieved altogether, and when I, when I said [00:30:00] it out loud, I almost cried. It was such an emotional, you know, moment for me because I, I, I meant every single. A letter that I, that I said, but then at the same second, I was terrified that everyone is going to notice I'm about to cry, and my voice started shaking.

I, I mean, you know how it goes when, when you are about to cry. But then the very next second, everyone, like 200 people started sending these, emojis. Yes. Like these reactions on themes with hearts. And, and I was like, okay, no, this is, this is beautiful.  and then I had to check with Michael, was that okay or was that not?

And he's like, Jovi, you are only a human being the same as all of us. And it's nice and beautiful that you've shown it to, to everyone. And it's true. But there is always that bit of like, is it oversharing? Is it over showing? Should we, [00:31:00] should we not? Is it a weakness? with time, I realized that maybe it's, it's more of a strength than a weakness

Leo Judkins: I definitely agree with that? Why? Why do you think that that's the case? Why do you think it's more of a strength and a weakness?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: because of authenticity, I mean, will you believe a person who tells you that they never shed a tear in their whole life and they're like 40, 50 years old? You wouldn't, right? So why would, why would you know people in a certain company, believe in a leader who is acting like a robot?

Leo Judkins: I think especially people that are new in managerial roles, they, they sometimes feel that they have to be someone that they're not yet. Right. 

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Yes.

Leo Judkins: it's the opposite of authenticity. They, it kind of goes against perhaps who they are because they think they have to be someone. And, have you experienced that with, as you were progressing through your career, are those things that you had to learn and overcome?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: A hundred [00:32:00] percent. This is one of the moments in my career that I will never forget. kind of, you know, my, my start. So before I, I got promoted into a manager and got to lead, a team. we grew friends with colleagues, you know, and then I think you mentioned it, happened to you, just before we started the recording.

Suddenly you find yourself, managing your friends out of work. So I was at the time, 24, 25, 24 I think, or something. So I, I didn't really know what is the right way, how to address this and, and segregate between, okay, this is Jovi friend and, and this is Jovi manager. You know, I wanted to erase completely, subjectivity and be, you know, objective to, to leading the team and, later company and so on.

So at the time I decided to wear a mask to be Jovi manager [00:33:00] and to be Jovi friend, and those two people were so different. it was so difficult to maintain that, you know, but at, at the time, I thought that's the right thing to do, that this is the only way to do it. I didn't have a mentor at the time who could have guided me, and, I, I was exhausted, Leo. I, I was literally exhausted by, you know, having to perform one way and not be myself. I'm talking about the character and personality more than, you know, professional skills and stuff, compared to what I was at home and in the, in the, in the society, let's call it that way.

And then what happened, was very beautiful. I, I had a yearly performance with one of my reportees, a dear, dear friend of mine to this day. To, I mean, we've known each other for 17, 18 years. It feels like a lifetime. She told me, we went all according to the [00:34:00] you know, structure of this, and then at the end she said, I, I have to tell you something.

You're the best friend in the world, but you're the worst manager in the world. 

Leo Judkins: My God.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: and I was like, excuse me, you know, with that kind of, excuse me, what are you talking about? And she said, why are you so afraid to show who you are? She said, I'm tolerating you because I know that this is not you. I know who you are 'cause you're my friend.

I've known you outside of work. Why are you so afraid? What's the worst that can happen? and I said, fine. I'm not having this conversation any more. It's done. Performance overview.  and then, but I went into the weekend talk, thinking about it, what is the worst thing that can happen?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Okay. And then I said, you know what? Let's,  let's, let's let, let's just [00:35:00] experiment. and the worst thing that happened to me was actually the best thing that happened to me. I changed my management style. I. You know, I, I, I, I just stopped playing this role of a manager and wearing this mask, and I just went with, you know, who I am.

And,  wonder or wonder, it was, much better accepted people were listening more and,  following more and, and everything else that, you know, followed after that. And it was so much easier for me. So that was, it took time, by the way.  it, it, it was not an overnight, not change from my side.

It was not an overnight change from everyone else. 'cause I still had that, reputation. And there was a nickname for me back in the days. they used to call me Dragon Lady.

Leo Judkins: Oh my God.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I, I know, I know it doesn't sound well, but that is [00:36:00] who I was. or that mask that I was wearing.

And it took some time, to kind of slowly, overcome, you know, that past and their reputation. And I'm so glad, that she spoke to me about it, that she literally just cut me with that one sentence that, that literally changed my career. I'm eternally grateful for her, and she, and she knows it.

If she's going to be listening, she knows, that that's her.

Leo Judkins: It is true, isn't it? Like, it's always these kinds of pivotal moments where either we feel ashamed or we are confronted by someone, someone puts a mirror in front of us, or people tell us something that we really maybe hadn't thought about or we hadn't said out loud, and all of a sudden it's like that horrible boyfriend, right?

That says something like, that's awful, but it, it, it, it was the fuel for you to, it, it brought up a like the, the dragon fire. Maybe, you know, it brought up the dragon fire.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: He played his role. He played the role a hundred percent. [00:37:00] That's what they needed? Yes.

Leo Judkins: and isn't that true sometimes? And, and I, I think about this a lot as a parent as well, we want to, you know, we wanna wrap our kids in bubble wrap.

We wanna protect them from everything, but sometimes it's the uncomfortable things the discomfort or the, the honest truths that help us, well, not sometimes they are the things that help us the most, and that really form us as, as people. you think about that at all as a, as a leader as well?

How you can be, balanced in your feedback versus, brutally direct and really help people change how they maybe perform or how they lead?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I do both.

The fun fact is that you can be brutally honest and direct without being rude.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: but what is more important than, than you know, this balance, is to understand who are you talking to. for your message to be heard the way you want to be heard, you need to adapt.

Your, let's call it wording to the person you are [00:38:00] giving it to, to that is to receive that feedback.  we go back again to, you know, being authentic and having open door policy and, letting people know you, but also getting to know them, so that you can then manage them also from this perspective that you just mentioned.

Way, way better. I know, a hundred percent, you know, is a number of people where. It's  just cut the BS. This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Of this, I'm very disappointed. This needs to be better. by tomorrow morning, it needs to be on my desk. 'cause this is what works for them. This is the feedback that they take, the best, maybe I exaggerated a bit, but Like this very brutal direct and, you know, with the timelines and, and it's now or never, where, other, group of people were, they would not handle this at all.

So I still need to tell them that, you know, something was, was not, let's say good enough, but I need to. Give [00:39:00] them an example why it was not good enough. I, I need to compare it to something else, maybe that they did. I need to, give them a tip or two, how, what they could do to improve it. So, there are many ways how you can provide, for, for we're talking about negative feedback, but even positive there are many ways.

But what, what's the, the, this balance is, is more about balancing it out in front of who you're talking to rather than balancing out your words.

Leo Judkins: it's not about what you say, it's what people hear. Right. That's really the key. I wanna talk a little bit about female leadership. You are of course, one of the very few, females, especially in b, in the B2B space in iGaming, very few CEOs. But what has that meant to you and what, what is that like in that journey? What are some of the challenges that you had to go up against that perhaps men don't even recognize or realize, and what are your views on it and, and how's that experience been for you?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: A rollercoaster, if I can. If I can say in one word. [00:40:00] But, this topic is, is very close to me, because yesterday in iGP we celebrated, ADA Loveless Day,

With an internal panel. And we discussed many topics around, women in STEM in general, not just in, in, in gaming.

And, was asked a question about evolution of women in gaming, specifically how it was, you know, 18 years ago and 10 years ago, and how it is today. I think I'm quite fit to, to say at least from our, my perspective, how it used to be in the last, 18 years because I, I was on that journey

And it, didn't, start, without any challenges for sure.

I was dismissed, not being taken as seriously, because when you, and just let's remember that those were the days when, you know, all the meetings were done in person.

These were no Skype calls or teams were not even. Alive back then. Right? So, you know, meeting with the potential [00:41:00] client, me walking into the room, 25-year-old, one meter 80, tall, blonde.

I had a few situations where I was asked to bring, coffee and mineral water, which is fine. I went out, I ordered coffee and I brought it back into the room, then sat at the table and said, okay, well nice to meet you. I am, you know, name and surname, we can start the meeting now.

I was genuinely not offended. Why? Because that, those were the times. Where you, you would not find young female managers, you know, leading meetings with suppliers or clients or, or so on, you would not. So, that was, let's say, the environment as it was.

So that was not, they did not ask me to bring coffee because they wanted to offend me. It's because it was very unusual and uncommon. So I would bring [00:42:00] coffee, would sit down with continue fun bit was the look on their faces. Every time. That was the fun bit that I always,  you know, remember.

So the beginnings were like that, but it was very similar to, to my other story that I, that I mentioned. It just kind of, you know, helped me,  push through and, and, and push forward and, and go forward and, so many years. Later. What we see today, and not just in igaming, but in say, the rest of the industries and businesses is that women are represented, have a, you know, better representation and more,  a larger percentage.

Even though I am not a fan of hiring a woman for the sake of hiring a woman to fill in the quota. So I would always give the chance to the let's say, better fits of the person, whichever gender they are. But what I don't [00:43:00] tolerate is that, you know, one gender over another would have, a preferential treatment because it's not just women having preferential treatment over men.

It could be the other, the other way around for certain roles. Again, if we talk about tech, there are many more,  developers, males than, than females. Right? but if there is, a woman that has a better chance, sorry, a better skill set than experience and so on than a man, I would hire her.

Right.

I, I have seen iGaming progress massively in, supporting females. and, you know, allowing them to, let's say, enter into the roles, that we haven't seen before. what we still don't see enough is, women leaders, We have, a higher, an increased portion from 15 years ago to today in the entry level to mid-level.

But senior and, you know, [00:44:00] C level is, there's not many,

but this is also changing. You know, I was on, a birthday party a few weeks ago, and it was all, people from gaming, it was maybe 25, 30 people. And I found myself, having to, and talking to, the CEO, and the CTO, both of them ladies, you know, that I never met before.

And it is beautiful, and I think this trend, you know, will, will continue nowadays.  I don't have any, any challenges any more. It, it used to be, you know, even five years ago I was introduced, or six years ago I was introduced as a woman, CEO, a couple of times on meetings. so again, not offended, but then the next time, I did, maybe an uncommon or unpopular thing, but I introduced a CEO as a male CEO, yes.

Without [00:45:00] having any discussion, without complaining or saying that I didn't appreciate, you know, them calling me women's CEO, I just said, okay, so this is XY, male, CEO and magically I was never again called a woman. CEO

Leo Judkins: it's a consequence also,  nowadays of kind of the, the pool of talents. Or because I like, I'm, I'm kind of thinking back to this story from, from Lewis Hamilton right about,  people of colour in Formula One racing teams. And he's saying there's literally nobody, like there's all, there's just white people that are in these racing teams, and they did the whole research and they found that it's actually, it's kind of starts with the opportunities from the bottom.

There's just literally hardly anybody feeding into the bottom. And therefore, even if you'd set quotas, there's, there's, you know, there's very little that flows to the top because there's no nothing at the bottom. Do you feel [00:46:00] that that's the case? do you feel it's changing?

What are your views on that?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: this has definitely changed. So, the entry level is, is not what it used to be before in gaming 20, 15 years ago. We have, so that starting point, let's say, of the pool of women who could grow is, is, I don't think that's a that's an issue. I think we, or I see it more as, combination.

Also, cultural differences and, let's say, expectations from, the environment that you are in. This is something, again, that we discussed yesterday.  there are still, you know, countries and, nations and cultures that expect women more to, you know, to not stay at home, but to be there for their parents as a caregiver if needed, to support, you know, the kids more.

Say, you know, a child gets sick, who is the first one you think that's going to take care of, of [00:47:00] that kid, father, or mother? So the, the, the natural thought is, ah, so mum is going to stay at home. Right? So, it's kind of a role that historically to this day as well, women take in the, in the society with, you know, these roles that I, that I mentioned, then becomes a choice between are we going to fulfil, are we going to do this or we're gonna, you know, pursue our career.

And, I don't know, because I was, I, I knew what I wanted, but also I had, you know, I have my beautiful husband who supports me in every step of the way for the last 10 years. but you know, maybe, maybe other, ladies don't feel like they, they can do it all, but guess what? They can, 

Leo Judkins: it's just this crazy expectation that we have of ourselves that we just have to have it all sorted out. And it's okay if that's not the case all the [00:48:00] time.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: a hundred percent Leo, I, I can't agree more. I think that the pressure is more the one that we put on ourselves than, than anyone else really does. I'll go again to my stupid example of nails. So who cares if I don't have a fresh manicure of three weeks, so I'm going to have it to four weeks?

Is that important to anyone else rather than me?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: what am I doing here? I'm disappointing myself and I'm disappointing my expectations, but then to reach that balance, certain expectations need to be adjusted. They need to be adjusted, you know, otherwise we, we can all just go mental.

Leo Judkins: yep.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: cannot, you cannot juggle all of these things with brilliance at every single moment of every single day.

It's impossible. So the sooner, the sooner we,  admit ourselves that we don't have it all covered and yeah, we, you [00:49:00] know, we don't know yet. Well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, the easier it actually,   becomes. And yeah, not everything needs to be perfect. You know, I didn't, I, I didn't,  put my bed,   you know, neat in the morning.

'cause I was in the rush. So it's maybe one day out of seven that I didn't do it. What's going to happen? Well, storm is in Malta. Maybe that broad bad weather, but nothing more than that, you know?

Leo Judkins: Yes, yes. I love it. last question for you. If you went back to maybe your VP days or a little bit earlier in your career, what's a piece of advice that if you'd go back five or 10 years, you would give yourself, that would've? Um. That would've really benefited you. That's something that perhaps you only found out later that you wish you knew earlier.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: It is going to sound like a sentence from a Hollywood movie. Sorry for that.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: But I would, I'd tell myself just,  just one sentence. [00:50:00]  don't doubt yourself. I spent way too much time thinking if I'm able to do it, then if I would actually go and did it.

Leo Judkins: because we have so many overthinkers in the world, right? People that doubt themselves and think, oh my God, should I do this? I think with AI it gets even worse because we throw this stuff through AI and they, it keeps going. Like you go through that, have its rabbit hole.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Yeah, we do.

Leo Judkins: over overthinking and, and, and doubting yourself, what's, what's something that helps you, kind of break that break out of that?

Jovana Popovic Canaki: I think of all the of all the achievements, that were there looking in the past and seeing, you know, every time looking back and seeing it every time that when I doubted myself, but then I've, squeezed the teeth and went through it either myself or with the help of someone else or, you know, jointly with the team.

Even in personal life, it's the same. It's the same, right? You, you need to overcome something. I just remember that and I say, Hmm, [00:51:00] okay. So you doubted yourself in, on 12th of October 2021. but you've dealt it with this situation. What was the outcome? It was good. Okay. So you doubted yourself on 3rd of March in, 2017, that you won't do, you know, make through that exam.

How did the exam end up? You got a straight A. So why do you keep doubting yourself every time when you are in front of a wall problem, challenge, unpleasant situation, whatever, why you might fail. You might not solve it, but you're going to learn from it. So just this, this is, this is what really helps me.

this is the conversation that I learned how to have with myself

Leo Judkins: Jovi, thank you so much

Jovana Popovic Canaki: so much.

Leo Judkins: for talking today and taking, taking all this time really, really great talking to you and thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Jovana Popovic Canaki: Thank you so much, Leo. It was, such a lovely chat and all these questions. They also brought me back, you [00:52:00] know, in, in, in the past. And,  you know, all the good and challenging stuff that were happening. I, I feel very nostalgic now.  thank you. Thank you for that.  thank you for that feeling, and thanks for today.

Leo Judkins: No worries. Thank you.