Podcast Episode 27: The Real Cost of Always Saying Yes

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): [00:00:00] they said, we need a guy who can present, who can blog, who can edit, who can also, write, front page articles.

And I said, yeah, sure. I'm the, I'm your guy. I had no, experience in, blogging or, editing or presenting, but, I bluff myself in, ​

I felt I was well equipped for that job. , At one point I was kind of like, The face of Dutch poker, at least at the, at the time. So I felt very comfortable. I was kind of proud of, of what I reached, without like a journalistic background or anything.

​

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): And then I was inducted in the Poker Hall of Fame. So on top of it being an honor, to be inducted,

I was very emotional at the time. there's some photos where, you know, I'm, I'm crying a little bit because it's, it was a beautiful moment

Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins and as an ex iGaming Director turned Performance Coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain, bet365, Flutter [00:01:00]and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance.

In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same.

So with that being said, let's dive in.

Leo: Hey guys, welcome to the iGaming Leader podcast. I am here today with somebody that I have been following for a very, very long time. So super excited to to speak to you. Frank Opt Woods. I dunno how to pronounce it in English, but so we'll just do it in that's Frank Opt Woods. Really excited to have you here. Founder of Casino News. Co-founder of Casino news.ne of course. Massive in Holland. And yeah, I've, I've been following you for a long time when you were still with Poker News for a very long time. So welcome welcome to the podcast, man.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Thanks for having me. Very excited to be here. Excited to talk to you.

Leo: Yeah. Great. Great to have you.

Hey Frank, I wanted to start off with kind of the mid two thousands. We were talking about it before kind of that, that poker [00:02:00] boom , and how, everything was so different back then, right? Poker was on tv at midnight. we were all playing the Americans, you know, waking up to collect some money.

But I'd like you to go a little bit back before That How did you actually get into the, into the industry before you even joined Poker news?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): no, it was

from moment one. It was true poker news, to be honest. Like, like you, I got excited about poker, I was seeing it on tv. I was playing, I think it was at first on Poker Stars and Everest Poker. You know, they had these one or 5 cents, freeroll, the Shastas and, and whatnot. But at one point, obviously, you know, I, I went looking for some strategy.

I went to poker news and they had a big forum, so I got involved there.

Obviously looking back at it, I, I asked a lot of stupid questions. I was, total beginner, total newbie. But I was hooked from moment one, really. I, I've been always enjoying playing games. Never like a huge gamer, but like, games within the family card games. I was always interested in [00:03:00] that.

And you know, from, from, from one thing led to the other, I, I got more involved. I got a thousand posts, I got a 2000 posts at that forum. I became a moderator. That was, you know, it, it was an honor to be one of the moderators there. And then I became head moderator. And then at one point, they I started working for a company which was called Poker Less poker Lessons.

You know, drunk people explaining them the rules of poker in like 20 minutes. And then playing a little game. That company was kind of merging or collaborating with poker news.

So they needed a guy who would write these silly 500 word articles on RX adventures. So that was my first writing gig for poker news. So at one point they, they, they started a magazine, like a physical magazine.

So we had a physical magazine where I started working. On that. I interviewed people and then at one point they said they would always go to the WSP in in Vegas for seven weeks straight every [00:04:00] year. They said, we need a guy or a girl, obviously, who can present, who can blog, who can edit, and who can also write front page articles.

And I said, Yeah.

sure. I'm the, I'm your guy. I had no, no experience in, blogging or, or really editing or presenting, but, you know, I bluff myself in, so I went to Vegas for seven weeks straight. but You know, that those seven weeks in Vegas, they flew by. I was extremely excited to stay in poker and he said, you wanna stay working with us? I can offer you, I think it was 2000 euros a month, something like that, which, and I said, Yeah.

let's do it.

You know, I wanna stay in poker. I wanna be that poker reporter. I want to go e everywhere. They, at the time, they still had the European Poker tour. They had, I think they had 13 stops in a year,

At the time. And we had the uni bed opens, we had the WSB, so, it was Crazy and I loved it. So I started working with them, and that's really how I got in, in, [00:05:00] involved in, in gambling. I started going to the World Series Poker 2008. And then from that moment on, I, for 13 years straight, I went to the World Series of Poker every year. And I've greatly enjoyed it, It was the time of my life.

Leo: So cool. We were talking about this before we kind of had the same start, right? I did the same thing, quit my job. was kind of living at, at home you know, And also quickly realized that. I was also on this point where, where you were, I think, where I realized, okay, yeah, I'm pretty okay with playing poker, but I'm not gonna make it.

in the poker world. right?

And there's this quote that you've ha you've ha you had, you know, my losing sessions hurt way more than the enjoyment of the winning sessions. Right. and I think like that's level of self-awareness. I thought when I read that from you I thought that was so cool. so is that, like, how was that for you, Frank? Because that kind of that realization, if you're so passionate about that, you know, that

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah,

Leo: poker in itself, it must have been very difficult.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I,

I reached a level where I. [00:06:00] You know, these guys are really good. And at the time you had poker office, which was, you know, the, the stats tracking, it wasn't really my thing.

I, Yeah. I was, I was interested in it, but I couldn't really grab it. And then I was reading our forums and I could, I could understand everything that they're explaining, but I couldn't really do it myself. But yeah, I was hooked by poker in, in itself. So when I got the opportunity to go to Vegas for seven weeks, I jumped at it and I had no, no issue with not playing myself.

You know, I would play the daily deep stack every now and then, or some small cash game. But it wasn't like, I felt like I'm majorly missing out. 'cause I saw that people would lose their buy-ins as well and people could get down on their, their lockdown. You know, it's, so, I very much enjoyed having the perks of being in that atmosphere, being in Vegas, being in Monaco, Barcelona, Melbourne and everything hanging out with these ballers.

I, I got [00:07:00] invited a lot to a lot of parties, so, you know, I had my fair share of of fun at the time, but it didn't cost me an arm and a leg basically. So, no, I was very happy with how that all turned out and I was, I, I feel that, so, so we did interviews, but we also made daily videos and whatnot, and I could talk on a certain level with these high roller, high level, high stakes players.

I could ask the right questions. People looking at our videos, watching our videos would understand that I wasn't like some total idiot,

So I was believable. I felt I was well equipped for that job. And Yeah. I was striving, you know, at one point I was kind of like, the face of Dutch poker, at least at the, at the time. So yeah, I felt very comfortable. I was kind of proud of, of what I reached without like a journalistic background or anything. I was,

you know, presenting. I was my, my mother heard me at well, it was always 1:00 AM when they showed these poker shows in the Netherlands, but still it was my voice here, so she kind [00:08:00] of got around to it and I'm, I'm not sure if she was proud, but at least it was more than just some anonymous website for her.

Leo: Man, you know what, I just for the listeners here, so I

was in the poker industry at the same time in Holland as well, in Dutch. And you were a superstar man. You were like everybody was following you. And so thank you for everything you've done in the industry, because you were on tv, all the t po was on the TV all the time, your face was everywhere, your news was everywhere. how was that lifestyle for you, all of that traveling That must have, I mean, that's a very demanding lifestyle, traveling a lot, reporting a lot on tv late nights. Like how was that, how, how did you feel about that? Must have been very exciting, but must have had a very demanding side as well.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I was away from home for weeks out of the year, and I would eat very unhealthy.

I remember. In, in Vegas. It was at the Rio at the time. You had all American Bar and Grill. I would eat there six, six nights out of seven. It, I was very unhealthy. I was, I was growing. I obviously, I was enjoying myself. I went, [00:09:00] I, I partied a lot. I was invited to a lot of parties and late nights.

I was always trying to go from one stop straight to the other instead of flying back home for two days. I would, you know, I. I would ask for the best hotels, or at least the best breakfast, for example. So I, you know, you know, stuff like that. It, it was just exciting. It,

and I had my friends at home, but I was still living at home, so I didn't have like a house that I needed to take care of, or I didn't have a, a girlfriend or a wife like I have now, and I,

have a, a son right now.

And

none, none of that.

It was just a different time. It was, it was just very excited exciting to, to be part of. And Yeah, like I said, at least, you know, for the poker fans or I, you know, it had, I had some recognition as well, so I yeah, I felt proud and some of my friends from back home, they would follow me around.

I was big on Twitter at the time. Obviously I don't use it anymore, but, you know, that was the, the medium of of interest for the poker world. I had a [00:10:00] lot of followers. People were following we, yeah.

It was It was a it was a good time.

Leo: just to kind of underline what you've done for the industry I think in 2015 you co-founded the Dutch Poker Hall of Fame. right? then in 2019, you were the first media member to you know, to get awarded by your peers And be recognized. Such an honor.

How, like that, I thought that was, super cool. How did you, like, how, how was that moment. for you? How did that feel?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah.

Getting in in inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame was a bit of a weird one because I started the poker Hall of Fame because, you know, you have the International Poker Hall of Fame. I would, every year I would nom nominate Marcel Lusk and then Noah Buca two of the great poker players and they would never get in because, you know, it's mostly Americans and whatnot.

So I fi figured, you know, we need to have our own Dutch Poker Hall of Fame. And I started it. I worked with Holland Casino here in the Netherlands to give it some weight and we had a proper ceremony and we had a website and whatnot. And, but my first rule was [00:11:00] I cannot get it because it, you know, it's kind of weird if it's my poker hall of fame that I would get in myself.

And we have the public voting, but we also have the, the sitting members, they decide who gets in, not me. And so I, I set it up properly, so I couldn't get into any any issues there. But In 2019, they decided that I needed to be in there. Anyway, it was a, a, a really a surprise to me when I got in and I was very honored, very, and I was very emotional at the time as well, I had just gotten married.

I had just had my son. I was without a job. So that was, and I had obviously at the time by, by then I had my own house and, and whatnot. So I had responsibilities and all of a sudden I had no job for the first time in my life, basically. Of course. And so I was, and my wife was fired as well a couple months before.

And then I was inducted in the Poker Hall of Fame. So on top of it being a ve an honor, you know, to be inducted, [00:12:00] it was some sort of validation as well.

And it was, it, it, that's why I was very emotional at the time. There's some photos where, you know, I'm, I'm crying a little bit because it's, it was, it was a beautiful moment and, I was very happy about it, and obviously Yeah.

like I said, honored and then But I figured, you know, I can always go back to poker reporting, right?

I know everyone in the poker world I know how to write. I can present I'll be fine. Right? I was very honored to get inducted, but at the same time, I, you know, a poker Hall of fame, to me it should be about the poker players first. .

But, you know, some people were very imp important for the game of Poker in and the popularity of the Game of Poker in the Netherlands as well, but weren't per se poker player. So I was one of them. So maybe I should be in that Hall of Fame as well. It's kind of like, a dis a semantic discussion, right?

What should be a poker role? Fame? What should be the, the Basketball Hall of Fame? I don't know. People have different thoughts, but there were more people that were important for the popularity of the game. [00:13:00] Not per se, the best players or anything. So it wasn't that I was a one off, but yeah.

I was the first media member and I'm still very honored that I'm in there and I still have it listed, I think on my LinkedIn for example.

It's just, it's one of these things, right? When you look back at it I was the head of content for poker news, which I felt very proud of. I, a member of the Poker Hall of Fame that I'm proud of, and now I'm a founder of of a, of a website that's doing well, and I'm also proud of that.

Leo: Yes. And rightly so. then covid happened, right? So you've got all these things happening at the same time. you're a new dad, which for anybody that isn't apparent yet, means that you're losing a lot of sleep. So you're already not, you know, you're not at your best.

It's difficult, you know, the first few years with a, with a kid you just, you had your own ho home, right? You've got your first mortgage. You your wife loses the job, then COVID hits. So

that would've, that would've knocked somebody out

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah.

Leo: Been less resilient than you. How, how did you manage through that time

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): through my [00:14:00] poker career like poker reporting, it, it wasn't making you rich, but there was always some money in there, right? I had experience, so I felt it was always in the back of my mind, it was a backup plan. Basically, I, whatever happens, I can always go back to poker reporting, earn a couple hundreds a day and, you know, make a, make a living and see some cool places.

But covid happened and all of a sudden that backup plan was gone. You know, there was, there were no tournaments. I was scheduled for a poker tournament in Paris, and that got canceled. I got, just, got back from Punto Deesse in Uruguay. That was the last big tournament that happened that year. And all of a sudden I had a, a real problem.

I had some money saved up. I could easily get by for six months, but after six months, you know, it, it was tricky.

Some people contacted me and they had well plans. They talked about the Dutch online gambling market opening up in the, but it was still more than a year out at the time. And they said, you know, we're gonna in invest a year of our time, and then when the market [00:15:00] opens we are gonna reap the rewards.

And I said, Yeah.

you know, it all sounds great, but I don't have that year. I, I can't go buy a year without earning any income. I, I simply have to pay my mortgage and my son's diapers and, and whatnot. So Yeah.

I, I, I told these very friendly people, you know. That, that's a no go for me, but then things changed fortunately because someone contacted me I'd never heard of, and he said my name is John the Mo, you've never heard of me, but I know you because I've been following poker.

I play poker a little bit and I wanna start a gambling affiliate website. And my first reply was, I have no interest in gambling. I, I only enjoy poker because it's a skill game.

and and I. But Yeah.

you know, you can only be so brass for so long because, you know, like I said, I needed some money as well.

So I said, but we could always have a conversation. But I, I wanted to make sure that one that I was talking [00:16:00] to was not Shady that was like a proper person, someone honest, not in it for quick box or anything. And he said. You and I have a mutual friend, our main mayor, contact him and ask him about me, and I'm sure it'll make you feel more comfortable.

So I ringed

Leo: great.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Our man and I said, like, who's young? The mo? I said, Yeah, he's a poker player. But he's also a very serious affiliate in the Netherlands. And he's a straight shooter. He's an honest guy, you know, a hard worker. He's, he's done it himself. He's not some yeah, like there's a lot of shady characters

in the industry in gambling, but in affiliation for sure as well.

So Covid, OD hit really hit, so there was a lockdown at the time, but I said, I'll come to Birmingham and we can meet. And on a Saturday morning I drove here and, we had a meeting and it just clicked right away.

I felt yeah, I felt a connection. Like, and I've told him this myself as well.

Obviously I had limited options. I needed [00:17:00] something. But I said, if we're doing this, I need a salary even if we're investing for a year or building the website for a year without even going live at first and then being live with no banners, no affiliation, no links, no, no nothing, I still need a salary be.

And he said, okay. And I said, my rule number two is if we're doing reporting, we're doing proper reporting. We're doing real news. We're not just writing what others are writing or you know, quick bits. Obviously you didn't have chat GPT at the time, but you could, you know, scan an article and have like a.

You know, five, 400 page version of it yourself within like half an hour. I said like, no. Okay. If we're doing it, we're doing proper reporting. We're doing, we're sh sharing our sources and whatnot. And he said, yeah, that sounds like our, I, my ID as well. And I think, yeah, I, I think I was here in March, 2020, something like that in April 14th we started.

So Yeah, it was,

it was good.

Leo: So cool Frank. One of the, one of the things that I wanted to [00:18:00]ask you about there is, I also remember the transition from poker to sports betting and casino. and I was in the same mindset as you, right?

You go, ah, but this is a skill game and now I'm going to go into this area that. You know, like many people that have no experience with with the gambling industry is a bit of a I dunno, it's just tarnished, right? Where you feel that it's full of people that are super addicted and there's businesses that just help people get addicted. That's your kind of the outside view when you're not, when you're not inside of it for many people.

And then obviously over the years, you know, as you start, you see that that's actually very different. But how was it, how was that for you? I know that you were saying you needed a job, but that must have been a difficult decision as well, right? That that mindset shift from from it, from poker to, to gaming.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): so, sports betting has always been a bit of an outlier for me because I knew professional sports betting players as well. So I knew there was skill involved there. But Yeah. Like typical gambling, that was always something that I didn't really felt a connection with. Obviously [00:19:00] everyone's gambled, but you know, you had poker stars back in the day that was just poker, but you also had party poker with the, the blackjack logo on the top left corner. so I didn't feel comfortable with that at the time. But because of poker in the Netherlands, I had always been interested in the legislation in the Netherlands. And it was it was illegal, but it wasn't illegal because like you said, you know, it was on tv. I didn't feel like I was doing something illegal.

Leo: so many things in Holland, you

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah.

Leo: Everything.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): basically that's why, why we build our country on. But

Yeah.

no, so I didn't feel, but I knew there was legislation in the work, so I always kept tabs on, on what's going on there. So I was well aware that we were in the process of regulation, legislation writing new legislation. So I was interested in that part of it because it was also relevant for poker.

'cause

if, if, if if the legislation opens up, you know, we have proper poker online poker. I hoped that we would get proper live poker as well outside of Holland Casino. [00:20:00] That never happened. But so I was, I was tapped into that and that made it, the transition maybe a little bit easy because at first I was building the website, writing articles mostly on the legislation part because I felt it very hard to find proper information on what's going on.

What's, what's the current state, when are we when is the legislation happening? You had gaming in Holland that had a newsletter once a week that gave us an update. But I, I wanted more and I was looking into stuff that was shared from our government, from the regulator. So that eased me into it.

And, and, and more and more I appreciated that, you know, gambling has been, I. Going on for 60,000 years, I had gambled in my life. I've been in casinos. I wasn't addicted. So, yeah, No. it, I eased into it basically, and when I fully er brought myself into gambling, I look back at it, it's like, wow, poker's just so tiny.

It's just a, a fraction of, of everything. How could I be so, been so [00:21:00]invested in poker and not see the potential of these other games and, live casino was, you know, so yeah, I felt like, wow, I, I've been in this industry for so long, but I'd never seen the full scope of what is gambling and, and, and poker.

Tiny bit of it. Obviously poker was bigger back in the days. You had more online poker rooms and whatnot. Everyone's starting their own poll, online poker room, yet big

net

with different skins. But still, you know, poker's always been, I, I, I think for the majority of the, of the, the online programs and acquisition tool to get people into the environment of gambling instead of being the end destination.

So, yeah, it, I eased into it. I was very interested in the regulation part of it, and I still don't gamble myself and I always still warn a lot people, but I don't see the harm in it anymore as big as I used to be.

Leo: No. Exactly. Makes a lot of sense. and I think that's, that's true from everybody in the well, not for [00:22:00] everybody, But that's true for people as they move into it. And they start seeing that actually it's a tiny fraction and, yeah. as long as we are responsible. Right. It's, it's all good. one of the things I wanted to so when you launched casino News, Frank, like 2 20, 20. right? I like One of the things that you were doing is you had this kind of ramp up period where you were just grinding out, like you were writing and writing and and creating the websites, right? Like that level of intensity. I think you were, you've edited like a thousand articles or something or oversaw like a thousand articles before even, you know, before the whole thing even even went out.

Like that level of dedication and work ethic is just something else. And I kind of see that coming back with you. that in like how you were going about polka tours and travel. And, you know, have you always been like that? Have you always had that kind of work ethic in you?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah, for sure. But I mean, it's, it's, and I'm feel, I'm, I feel very flattered that you're putting it like that, [00:23:00]but, and I don't wanna put out too many cliches here, but I never saw it as, as you know, working, grinding, or whatever. I.

Totally enjoyed everything that I was doing when I was doing poker.

I didn't look at my watch like, oh my God, is it 3:00 AM yet because I want to go home? No, I was excited. Who's gonna win this tournament? What hands are they playing? This is crazy. I wanted to share it with the world. I was ran back to my computer because I was excited to share what I had seen. And, and at the sa it is kinda similar for when we started building casino news.

You know, I felt like, wow, this is interesting. People must be interested in we saw our numbers grow, you know, the visitors obviously we had no, there was no monetization yet, but you could see that it was, that we were building something that people were interested in it. You had some other websites that were in that same sp space already, but I felt they didn't do what we were doing and people were interested in it.

And I, you know, at the, one of the biggest [00:24:00] validations that I had was, because Jan, my, my, my my partner in Casino News, he was active back in the day already when it was a gray area. So

the regulator school affiliation was always in, in this little gray area where they were very wary of the regulator and, and the ministry. You know, they wanted to stay away from those as far as possible, but we were like a legit affiliate. Obviously we weren't doing affiliation yet, but we were gearing up for it. But, so we had all of a sudden access to the regulator. and I

did an interview request.

for the chairman of the, of the regulator, which was unheard of at the time that a, like a, a commercial website or at least, you know, an affiliation website would have an interview with the regulator. But they agreed.

And that was, you know, just crazy to me that we got that access. We, I asked Holland Casino it was during Covid, I, I need photos [00:25:00] of for my blackjack session. Can I make photos in Holland Casino of every blackjack combination? And they said, Yeah, that's okay. We'll.

You three, full days to dealers and you can, make photos of anything you want and we got a hundred thousand euros in, in chips to play with, obviously to to make photos of, not to, we couldn't keep them,

but like

Leo: my gosh, such a

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): that, that, layout was shaped. But that level of, of, of, of access was. Crazy and unheard of. And I hadn't anticipated that either. But, you know, to to the bold, the bold or the brave, you know, I just tried and they agreed.

So we had those photos. I did the interview with the regulator, and, you know, all of a sudden we had like a real proper website with real visitors that would

return every day and

obviously we weren't making any money yet, but we saw

the potential. So we started hiring people as well and we took it very very serious but one of the the, the funny [00:26:00] things is actually, so, we had regulation it started on October 1st 2021.

Leo: 2021

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): that's but they only announced the license holders

two days or a day before

And ICE

was going on, or IGB in Amsterdam was going on. So I was in, in Amsterdam, staying in a hotel.

I got up very early in the morning. No, I stayed up all night to to see who the the licensees would be. And I, published a simple article, just a news article I think it was 500 words. These are the license. holders. These are the the people that got their license from the cons, the, we built our website on that simple article because that one became the number one when you search for legal online casino in the Netherlands at one point, because we, as the first one had the 10 names of the license holders.

So we, we built this whole website with all this information, all section about online casino and whatnot. But this simple news article that really got us thousands and thousands of visitors [00:27:00] because everyone was looking, you know, I want to gamble online legally. Now I've heard that this is possible in the Netherlands.

Where do I need to go?

And we had the answer. So, yeah, it, it was an amazing time as well. And we got lucky a couple times, but it was also hard work, of course, but it didn't feel like hard work or anything. And, and it still, still doesn't, I still enjoy it.

Leo: it's, it's I dunno, like it sounds like for you there was also no real difference between being a head of content and found and being a founder of the business. Right? It's like entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial. It's still, you feel that level of ownership within your job, whatever the job was, is, am I getting that right?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I come from a of a family of entrepreneurs. My father had his own business. My brother has his own he just sold his own business. But, but still, but I never had that urge to be an entrepreneur Myself.

I very much enjoyed working for, for a boss first locally here in the Netherlands for Nobu later internationally.

And. So I didn't have that, you know, that, that [00:28:00] entrepreneurship, DNA or anything, but it came kind of natural. You know, we were building this website. I, I had very strong ideas about how to do the reporting, how do the, the new section, the, the explanatory pages. My business partner, Jan had very strong ideas about the SEO bit.

And obviously the website name was his ID and, and stuff like that. So it, it was more organic. And yeah, I feel the ownership, of course, it, it's my website. When something's wrong, people WhatsApp me or call me up and, and not my reporter. So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm the one responsible. I take responsibility, but it's also at the same time, it makes me, you know, there's no days off.

I don't, I don't mind it at all. but,

Leo: at

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): you know, it's, it is what it is. I was on holidays in, in Turkey two weeks ago, but, you know, I'm still on my phone,

A lot, you know. I, I don't putting in a, an out of office reply you know, back in a week. That's not something I feel comfortable with at this point.

Maybe [00:29:00] later you never know, but

I still feel

Leo: so

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): very responsible. I.

Leo: yeah, that, because that's that's something that I'd love to touch on, Frank. because one of the things you said is that you were you were hoping that this is gonna be your last ever thing, right That you can retire from with, with casino news.

I think one of the problems as founders that We have is that it's our baby, right?

And So you feel very attached, and like you said, you get WhatsApp whenever something's wrong, not the person that wrote it, And it also makes you the bottleneck sometimes, right? Because your, your standards are way higher than everybody else. Like, how do you deal with that as you, as You try and grow the business and maybe scale in the future?

What are some of the challenges that you see for yourself?

Yeah.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I, I feel that's the responsibility as, as the CEO as well to put the right people in place. So I feel comfortable at one point to leave them responsible. I have a, a great head, of SEOI have a great I'm officially still the editor in chief, but I have very senior editor that I feel very comfortable with.

I have a, a finance guy, like a, [00:30:00] you know, I'm putting the right? people in place, hopefully. And I feel very comfortable with that, that, but you know, there's always that in the, in the background that still,

Leo: right? That's

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, and maybe later, maybe later, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be able to step away from it, but I have no, not that urge right now.

I, I, I very much still enjoy what I'm doing. I feel. very comfortable with all the responsibilities that are, are there. If, if it were up to me, I would do this till I'm, I'm 70 or 80, you know, I enjoy the, the industry that we're in. I enjoy the position that we have as consumer news, but also the other websites that we have because we, we bought a network two years ago, something like that.

And so we have a lot of other websites in the same space as well. Yeah.

I'm, I'm, I'm not looking to retire at all. So yeah, that's not really it. It's not something that I really have to worry about just yet.

Leo: Yes. Yes. And that kind of leads me to, to something else Frank. What you were saying about the K that KSA [00:31:00] article And that kind of making your website boom. I've got two questions from people inside of our IGA leader mastermind. One is from, from Alex WinDor also affiliate business.

He he said, what kind of content beyond the typical top list had the biggest impact on traffic or conver conversations for you? Did you, did you publish something controversial that got pushback or wider media attention? Like how did that go? You, you've course mentioned you know, the first license holders, But but how has that gone for you in your business?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): So we have you know, you write we write a lot of content and we create a lot of other content as well. Sometimes you puts hours and hours into something and it barely registers. You know, you, you don't see a spike whatsoever. And then there's Other articles that you write like a, like, 40 minutes and it gets thousands of visitors.

Sometimes you dunno, you know, it's, it's no secret, but people love reading about jackpots. If someone wins a million and we write about it, you know, obviously we get a lot of attention with that. But that's not something that I'm [00:32:00] extremely proud of. That's just something that I register.

Other stuff.

That we've, we've done that's really made for for some not controversy per se, but like.

When we write something that is not beneficial to one of the license holders or even one of our partners, that's always tricky, you know, because we are an affiliate, but

Yep.

Is our business model. I don't see ourselves as a, as an affiliate. I see ourselves as a, as a website. And the way we make money is affiliation.

But we are a news website first, and that should have a president above anything else. So when there, at One

point there was like a license holder that was our partner as well. They did something that was not allowed.

by the regulator, was pretty clear in the legislation. It was not like a gray area.

They did something that wasn't allowed. They sent an email to their old database from before they were a license holders. That was, that's simply not allowed. Okay. [00:33:00] I feel we need to write about this. You know, I.

Leo: Mm-hmm.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I don't say that we're all investigative with journalists or reporters, but this is something very clear that we're seeing.

If we're, if I'm not reporting on it, that would be weird as well. I feel, but we give all parties involved obviously the right to comment on it even sometimes see before we publish something so that if we are inaccurate somewhere they can respond. But we published it and Yeah.

it got obviously some pushback from the operator.

It made for other parties in our industry saying like, why are you writing about these bad things? These you know, it's bad for the, for the industry. It's bad for our name. It's bad for our image. And I said, you know.

that could be, but I wasn't the one doing something illegal. I just reported on it.

And I felt. You know, that's something that, is our duty as, as, as a website that's calling themselves casino news. You know, you, you gotta bring the news on the casinos if that's good or if that's bad. We have the same thing with these player [00:34:00] claims in the Netherlands. Obviously that's could be problematic for these license holders, but it is still something that's happening in the industry.

So we need to report on it. Even if it's bad for our partners, I'm sorry, but we have to. So sometimes the stuff that we write that makes for either controversy or people don't like that we're writing about it, but that's just part of the game. If you wanna be this platform that we claim to be, then we need to accept that as well.

And our partners need to accept that from us as well. You know, there's some international companies that really don't have experience with that kind of thing. You know, they're some of the British operates that are active in the Netherlands as well. They don't see that from their affiliates, that they write bad things or trend suggestions or, or, or whatnot.

So they push back a lot. Some of them don't push back at all, but some of 'em I have phone calls with basically every other week because they read something that they don't like. That's part of part of the game. And then obviously we're [00:35:00] fortunate that we're kind of, big, you know, we, we, we bring them a lot of FTDs and whatnot as well.

So it's not as easy for them to cancel our calendar or anything. Or at least I hope that they feel that our partnership is worth it in the end. But sometimes we step on some toes. Yeah, for sure.

Leo: Yeah, man, I love that, Frank, because the thing is right in our industry, especially in the UK, like news is just bought for, right? It's just paid for news. It's actually not news. It's just paid for news paid, paid for prizes, paid for awards, paid for right?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah.

Leo: I love that you're standing up for that, because that's actually what should be happening.

And then especially in a affiliation, I think there's so much, you know affiliate news web affiliate sites. There are some really dark kind of

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Okay.

Leo: On the web when it

comes to affiliates, right? How to circumvent know, whatever age checks and all that kind of stuff. So how do you see... When you see those kind of things, you know, news websites, publishing stuff that's actually not news or, or [00:36:00]affiliate websites that are super dodgy.

How does that make you feel as somebody that is like so on it when it comes to you know trust and transparency?

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I think I, I the fact that we are where we are today with Kazi News data, now that's only possible because a lot of others are not doing that and doing something basically completely different. But I completely understand what they're doing, you know, especially the old school affiliates news was just basically their way of having something new on their website so that Google saw that they were, you know, publishing new content, but they weren't really interested in it.

We made it the core of our website. And the honesty or the the independent reporting, I feel that's, that's the way to do it. If you're doing it, that should be the way to do it. And that's appreciated by Google. But especially by our readers. And that gives us the level of access that we have as well.

I mean, I, I don't feel the co the regulator or the ministry would be comfortable talking with us on a certain level or give an interview [00:37:00] or give quotes on, on stuff that's happening. If, if they see that we're, you know, doing half assing our job or, or being just the giving the positive things and not the negative things.

So I feel it's instrumental to the core existence of our website,

To, to have that level of dedication to that type of reporting. And I think it makes sense and I would love for that to be in a lot of other countries as well.

So I. Maybe one day. We'll, we'll, we'll get there. Obviously you have other websites that are doing a proper job.

You know, I, I follow next of course I follow IGP, I follow SPC and and whatnot. I still feel that our business model would work in other countries as well. But yeah.

we'll, we'll we'll see about that. If, if that's something we're going to explore. But, you know, being not for sale, that is, I feel that should be the basis for, for a lot of these websites.

Even when you're publishing articles with lists, [00:38:00] you can at least be upfront what makes for the the list order, right? If someone's paying for you to be on the top, you can, you can still be honest about it and, and still get away with it as long as you are honest, and because readers appreciated as well.

That they see that, that, Yeah.

That that is something that's not for sale. And same goes for awards. You know, we are, we're doing our awards in the Netherlands. These awards are not for sale. People cannot pay me or buy a table so they have a bigger chance of winning the award. That's not a thing because I feel invalidates the award,

our award, whatever you think of it is the online casino of the year award.

If, if you receive that, obviously you people have influence because they can ask people to vote, but they can, they cannot buy it. So then it's a proper award. Then it has value. Otherwise, it doesn't it my eyes,

Leo: I actually got two questions from Finton Costello, who's also on our mastermind The first one I shared with you yesterday, which was how is your new sauna? [00:39:00] The second one, which is actually the serious one. You kind of answered a little bit already, but I'd love to because it's so different in in the Netherlands.

is how did you, you know, how do you navigate that, all that difficulty of Dutch regulation, you know, with the over 25, 24 age gating And still become like the biggest affiliates in the Netherlands How did, how did, like, how did You navigate that? Because that is such a difficult thing to do for so many people that don't understand how challenging you know that that market is

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah, So first things first, the sauna is it, it, it, it is nice. Now, I, I was I moved to a new place and I wanted a sauna, and I was having a, a, a drink with finon, I think yeah, in Amsterdam actually. And, and he said, I have a, I have a sauna guy. And obviously he sold his business at one point.

So I said, I, you know, your proper rich when you have a sauna guy, you know, what is a sa who is a sauna guy? What, what do you knit that? He said, no, it's, it is just a guy IIIA [00:40:00] business. And they built great saunas. I said, okay, give, give me his number and I give him a call. And that same guy built my sauna.

And yeah I haven't used it as much as I as I want to. I've been busy and the weather is, is great for saunas. But yeah, it's great.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Finton is Actually one.

of our jurors for online casino of the year as well because he, he lives in Amsterdam and he knows the Dutch market as well.

So I'm very happy that he's on board as as a juror. But yeah. About the, the legislation,

it's in the Netherlands, we have.

a, a license model where the regulator, they give out licenses to operators, not to providers or affiliates or what whatsoever. So at the same time that makes it easy because anyone can start a website.

Anyone can start an affiliation website. There's no licensing process or application or whatnot. At the same time the operators are very wary who they're working with because obviously if, if I make a mistake And I, let's say I [00:41:00] target 12 year olds with Donald Duck and the Mickey Mouse website, and try to get them into like one of these operators, then,

the regulator will talk to the operator and say like, whatever this guy is doing I hold you responsible because it's your license on the line.

So they're very, of who they're working with. That was one of the reasons why we started the the the AVA which is the, which now is the QMRA in Europe as well. It's basically a, a stamp of approval for li for affiliates who they're working with. Because I wanted to have this trust that, you know, we know what we're doing, we know the rules when it comes to marketing and, and, and, and whatnot.

So it, it was already a tricky start. 'cause there's a lot of stuff that we have to adhere by, but the regulator doesn't talk straight to us. They talk to us through the operators.

And then last, no, two years ago by now, they had the orca degree. Basically. One of the, the most important thing for us as, [00:42:00] as affiliates was you need to prove that 95.

of your audience is 24 years of age or older.

And that was a massive issue because. That is something that all of a sudden all of the affiliates need to adhere by. So, I started with some others as well, but we started with all our competitors. We, we had sessions and said, we need to make sure that we're one line. We're, you know, we need to align our thoughts.

Obviously, We're com competing. We're big competitors. We are targeting the same keywords we're fighting in when it comes to SEO obviously we're friendly each other, but on this on this thing, we need to align. We need to make sure that what we're doing,

is,

Leo: doing,

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Everyone is doing the same. So it's in or route basically.

And then we need to find a solution for these this thing. And we ha everyone was working on their own solutions, but we shared some information as well because

Leo: as well

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): there's no market. If all of us disappear and then we feel. You know, affiliation as a, [00:43:00] as a marketing channel would disappear.

Maybe That would be not just bad for us.

because we would lose our livelihood, but it would be bad for the industry. It would be bad for generalization rate in the analysis would be bad for the regulator in the end as well. So I felt, you know, we need to align and we need to share wherever.

something is possible, we need, need to share.

Everyone had their own technical implement implementations. We, we worked very hard on some of the technical stuff, but when it came to compliancy and adhering by the laws, we needed to do the same. And some of the stuff wasn't as black and white. There was room for interpretation. So as long as we all have the same interpretation, we can not force, but, guides the discussion that people can have about it. So we talked to the, the regulator, we talked to the ministry, and obviously you can't sit there with 30 people, right? Because, you know, it's, that's probably gonna be annoying for the regulator. And then and, and the ministry. So I did a lot of those [00:44:00] talks and Steve, Steven Frolic from from the QMRA, the KVA sign of approval, did a lot Of

these talks and I felt we got where we needed to be because we're still around.

We still have competitors.

He said that we're the biggest affiliated A now we used to be. You have some that are a bit bigger on, on some stuff. I think we're the biggest when it comes to a headcount. I don't know if that's a good thing, but

Leo: That's

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I mean. yeah, that's cause well, we have like a proper team and, and whatnot.

You have man casino, you have other good affiliates. We're still around and we're still fulfilling our role in this chain that makes up the Dutch gambling industry. And

I

feel we're we're in a good place There's been a lot of talk recently especially the last year, about.

Leo: Year,

about.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Regulation, extra limiting factors.

But we got both the regulator and the politic politicians lined up with their focus now on the illegal offering that's huge in the Netherlands as well. So [00:45:00]I feel we, we guided the conversation to the right place. That's obviously not just on us, that's a lot of people involved there, but we did our part and the focus now is on this huge illegal offering, which is, I.

You know, it's simply unfair because we gotta adhere by all the rules they don't. That makes for an uneven playing field. So yeah, we're happy where, where we're at, and we feel very confident in the Dutch gambling market now. It's, it's still, obviously it's not as as a huge potential as it used to have before legislation hit, but there's still, it's still growing.

There's still possibilities and yeah, we're happy that we're still fulfilling that role.

Leo: Love it, Frank. Hey amazing. Last question for you. When you look back at at all of the things that you've done through your career, as we talked about through through Polka News, the, the challenges that you faced as you had to re-find yourself right? and and rediscover yourself as a as a parent, but also you know, as a co-founder. do you feel [00:46:00] is one of the most important skills or behavior traits that you have that have gotten you to where you are today?

Something that perhaps is very true to you and you don't see many others.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I actually thought about this a little bit, and I was talking to a, a, a different founder like two months ago who he, he founded a online taxi platform website. Something like Uber and Lyft, but like a local in the Netherlands. It's a, it's a, it's a scale up or it's not a startup anymore, but it's like, it's a massive business.

They have a huge company variance. And we had a different thoughts on leading by example.

Leo: Example

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): I

still have no issue working obviously no founder has, but like, working long days or even vacuum cleaning here at the office. you know, the, the, the little stuff I like to lead by example. I'll do the best and hopefully the people that work with me see that and feel motivated by that as well. He had different thoughts on it. He said, you know, [00:47:00] if I'm vacuuming cleaning, that's costing the business 400 euros an hour, that's not worth it. It would be a waste of my time and people work with me.

They are ambitious, and they would feel, see it as a, as a weakness that the CEO is doing the vacuum cleaning. I'm just giving an a, an example. But so we, we, we have different views on that. I feel that it's good for business still doing the small stuff. I'm writing articles as well still till, till this day, even though I have other responsibilities.

But I enjoy it. And I feel it's, it's, it's helping give the platform credibility and internally see the people that we're working with here. Like, okay, he's just, you know. The same guy and doing the same as we do, and hopefully they take get motivation from that and take that as an example.

It's a different feel. I feel that's very close to, to me, you know, I I don't feel comfortable and just bossing people around telling them what to do or, or holding. I mean, people are responsible, but it's not like if they make a mistake that, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, [00:48:00] I'll, I'll, I'll blame them till the end of time.

As long as we learn from it and you know, set up it properly that it can't happen like a mistake can't happen again. I feel that's something that we should strive for and that's what we're doing. And I feel it's it's working out for us.

Leo: Yeah, I think it's great advice, Frank. i mean, that's like being operational now and again to actually understand what's happening everywhere

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Yeah.

Leo: Is,

so important to be able to make great strategic decisions. So, yeah. Great piece of advice. Thank you very much, Frank for, for your time and conversation, being so open and honest.

Really really appreciate it, man.

Frank Op de Woerd (CasinoNieuws.nl): Thanks for having me. It was great talking to you.

Thank you for joining me on The iGaming Leader Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iGamingLeader.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast.

I'm your host, Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week.