Podcast Episode 22: There’s Always a Way Out: Mark Schmidt’s Story of Recovery and Redemption

Leo Judkins: [00:02:00] Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader. I am joined here today by Mark Smith, who is the MD for Every Matrix's been in the industry for 17 years.

And, yeah, Mark, really excited to talk to you today.

Mark Schmidt: Hey, thanks for having me. Really happy to be joining you today. Obviously we've had, you know, quite a bit of communication over the last few months and I've been following what you've been doing with, you know, our gaming leader and hearing the feedback from relevant leaders in the industry and people across the board. 

Super excited to kind of share my journey, which is slightly different to, to some,  but also to kind of just be on this platform and be associated with some of the, you know, amazing people that you've had in the past. So, thanks for having me.

Leo Judkins: It's been so good, talking to you again. Just You know, you've shared quite a bit on, on different podcasts, but for anybody that doesn't know you, would you mind kind of talking a little bit about your journey,  in the industry over the last 16, 17 years and, 

Mark Schmidt: Sure. So I kind of stumbled into the industry, by chance really. But looking back at it, it was destiny in a way, and that I went to school with Owen Heifer's son who? 

[00:03:00] Owen Heifer is the founder owner of Hollywood Bets of South Africa's biggest,  you know, B2C brand.

Brentford in the Premier League, you know, huge, huge brand, massive business. And started working for Owen and the Hollywood team and moved into the trading office, at Hollywood Bets. 

So, that office was basically a group of mates from school. You know, we partied hard, worked relatively hard. But it was a trial and error kind of process. You know, we, where we, we learned that making mistakes costs real money. 

But we learned very quickly how to, to fix those mistakes. But absolute amazing bunch of guys and, you know, very fortunate today. Not only did I go to school with most of these guys, but we've also continued our careers now in the B2B world. 

So when we go across to different gaming shows, events, et cetera, we all kind of stay in touch. 

And it's a really nice little community that we, you know, we've kept and we use that community to kind of share ideas and ask for advice and, , even though we, we competitors in many senses, that there's an open communication and, and helping out, which is, you know, huge for me.

[00:04:00] So. After Hollywood. I was there for about four or five years, I think. I got approached by Sport Radar, and then I joined Greg Parsons. 

Greg had a huge impact in my career, taught me the, the commercial side of, of, you know, of the, the gaming space. and Greg and I went into Africa and basically, you know.

Started selling the sport radar and bed radar feeds across Africa. At one stage I think we had, it's difficult to put a number on it, but I think there were close to over a hundred different partners within Africa that we signed up in that, you know, four or five year period. 

So, for Greg. but learned from the ground up. going out there, going out to parts of Africa that I never even thought I would visit or be associated with learning about different cultures, how a deal's done. Specific to each country, learning to be patient, which for myself. 

But, yeah, you learn to, you know. What's expected, wasn't expected. And it was an amazing experience with Greg and, you know, an amazing mentor for me in my career.

[00:05:00] So I left Sportradar because I was approached by IMG, and that for me was kind of from Sportradar, which I thought was this, you know. 

Absolutely, amazing, massive company. But going into IMG, where they basically touched every part of sports, you know, licensing, rights holders, broadcasting, et cetera.

And IMG has started at IMG Arena, which has just been acquired by Sport Radar. And headed up their operations and sales and commercial efforts for Africa and the Middle, middle East. So the growth of that business was, really, something that took me by surprise.

They seemed like month or month, there was something new that was dropping in. But it reached a point with IMG, where I realized that, I kind of hit my ability to, you know, to penetrate the market in various respects. I'd gone to all the tier ones that could afford the services, the tier twos, et cetera, and it became quite difficult to, to move on and, you know, kind of push what I needed to. then I was approached by Pronic Gaming called uh slash Sporting Tech and they were looking to get into Africa, which was something that really excited me.

[00:06:00] So they had a platform that had been really strong within the gray markets. So I helped a guy called Tommy Malloy. chief product Officer.

Great guy in the industry too. Became very good friends and kind of worked very closely with Tommy to, to build out the, the African product from a, you know, platform, gamification, etcetera. 

And that, that was a steep learning curve. And then I stayed with sporting tech again for another four or five years. Towards the end of my time with sporting tech, I kind of hit a bit of a. serious wobble. health had something that I had struggled with for my whole adult life. 

And even in two parts of high school where it was something that I had always taken medication for, but it was, I felt like I was getting better and then, you know, drop off it and then not continue it.

So it was always kind of these, continuous hurdles that I was facing, you know, every 6, 7, 8 months or so.

But with sporting tech, they reached a point where, the management at the time, there was a lot the, the. Employees were a bit disillusioned about what was going on. There were tech issues at the time.

They had very big clients within Brazil that needed a lot of requirements, but then also meant that we couldn't onboard new clients in other territories.

[00:07:00] So I, you know, as a sales commercial person, I was feeling that pressure, you know, I've gotta bring a business.

But then you are also hamstrung by what the business can do. I kind of spiraled out of control very quickly where, you know, I was going out, every, every night. I'd never been somebody like that. 

I would drink, I would say, every day. but then it came to the point where I would have a drink. I'd say, okay, it's 4:00 PM let me have a drink at my desk. One beer would turn into 10 beers or, you know, would return to the hard stuff quite quickly. 

And then as the time went on, those drinks would be happening earlier in the day too.  and initially, I suppose for me, I didn't think it really was a problem because I was still able to. Be a dad, be a husband, in my mind at least. And I was around for, you know, bedtime, bath time, et cetera. Although I was there in body, I wasn't there in mind. You know, I had like demons going on and I didn't, I felt so much guilt in terms of the way I was dealing with things that I didn't, I.

[00:08:00] I didn't share it with anyone. I reached a point where things just got progressively and progressively worse. And if I look back at now, I kind of balanced on the edge for a very long time. And then what effectively tipped me over was I went through to Mexico to do a deal. I. with a massive operator there.

And I ended up staying for a week and I spent, I think it was three or four days in San Diego,  by myself. And, what I did was just kind of drink my way through that period that I was there, I remember waking up in the morning and my room, hotel room was just, you know, covered with bottles and I was like, this, this has gotta change. And I actually decided then to, to get sober. 

So Monday was. This last Monday was one year sober for me. But even though I decided to get sober, I still had these mental challenges, you know, in terms of depression. The anxiety was getting crippling for me too. And as I'd lost that, I think looking back at it now, as I'd lost that kind of outlet in terms of alcohol to kind of take away the, the so-called edge that I was, you know, that that, that I had, I just kinda spiraled more and more out of control in terms of these thoughts where there's no doubt that it/

[00:09:00] I don't know how still here, you know, I got to a point where I just thought that, I wasn't really. Good enough to be around any longer. I hated myself if I'm completely honest. 

And I couldn't see any good that I could bring to this world. I kind of despised the way that I'd missed time with my kids, the excuses I would make not to hang out with family. 

My career obviously was at the stage of sporting tech where they, they're incredibly kind and, and understanding with me, and they, we became very good friends, you know, with myself and the new management that came in. And that's something I'll always be incredibly grateful for. 

Guy like Tom McDonough, Jack Smith, the sporting tech, absolute legends. Just all around good people and they hung in there with me to help me. But I was telling them one thing, like, yeah, I'm okay.

Yeah, I'll get through this. I'll get through this. and it got to a point where the one day I, I'd kind of just been thinking about it and. I decided that, you know, this is it. Like the time's not for me to go. And I planned how I was gonna do it. It's, it's, it's still something that I haven't really dealt with, I think entirely.

[00:10:00]  There's a lot of shame still from my side around that. But, you know, I've got three, three beautiful daughters. I kissed my girls goodbye. I went out, I kissed my wife goodbye, and I had this whole plan of how I was gonna do it.  And it felt almost surreal in a way because, clarity in terms of, I felt almost at peace, in terms of what I was going to do because I'd been on my mind for, for so long.

But then a few things kind of fell in place to kind of stop that from happening. And then I got home and, you know, I just kind of, I think I just kind of melted down, so any way I can really put it and, you know, like all that, that weight kind of dropped off me and my My wife knew something was, was up. She obviously knew something was up there after, but before that.

And I just kind of broke down in tears and just said to her like, look, this is, this is what's going on. And if I look at. How I'm still here today. It's, I'd say 90% down to her. 

[00:11:00] And the support that she, she's shown me throughout. She was very hard on me in terms of getting the recovery that I, that I needed and the support that I needed, and she basically had to run the household. 

While, this was all going on, and while I went away to kind of get my mind right and back to where I needed to be. But she showed me absolute love throughout. In terms of somebody that sets an example to, what it means to be, a, a parent, a leader, somebody who loves it.

For me, she's, she's absolutely amazing. So yeah, I kind of had this period after sporting tech, they're very kind of understand. They're absolutely amazing in the process. 

Everyone in the company, I lived there on good terms, and basically got to the point where I. I just, I knew I couldn't work and continue to do what I needed to do.

And then I explained that I'd spoken to my therapist and I, I needed to get away and just have a break from the industry, and get my mind right. And they granted me that. And, we separated on good terms with always understanding. 

If I wanted to come back, I could, if I wanted to. But I always knew that I think I needed something new and something fresh to start to gain to kind of, you know, a clean break and, and move on with, with new of how I wanted to, to live my life. 

[00:12:00] I went away to a facility called White River Manor, which is effectively a. Mental health, addiction retreat. 

Absolutely amazing place up in, just outside the Kruger in South Africa. Five Star Lodge. You know, only 10 little cottages with 10 clients from around the world at I was there for a month, and I could tell that the change that I made in that month. It seemed absolutely huge, to me at the time. But what it really did was kind of give me a break, away from the distractions and the pressures of my outside life. it made me kind of reevaluate what was important to me and how I needed to, to get out of there. 

And, you know, a month in terms of recovery is, is still very, very new and, and young.

[00:13:00] Being completely honest with myself about what I needed to do to continue supporting my family and being, and learning to accept myself and love myself again was a huge part of it too. So, it's a bit, a bit of a story passed. For a long time there were a select few within the industry that kind of knew my story.

These people were all very close to me. But. There were a lot that obviously didn't, didn't know and had no idea. 

And when they would see me going out, drinking or whatever, I was always known as the, the guy who would stay till the very end, and would always be up for a good time and good for a party. 

And yeah, so it's, it's, it's interesting when people now saying like, well, I didn't really expect that, I've known you for 10 years or so, and a lot of people have come forward and kind of said, look, I've had the same, you know, the same issues too.

And it's, I think, from that people. Very, very good at hiding exactly what's going on and, and displaying what they want the world to see. yeah, in a, in a nutshell, that's, that's basically,  how I got here now.

Leo Judkins: [00:14:00] Wow. Mark, thank you for sharing that. It's,  yeah, I, I, you know, it's, it's such a, such a journey you've been on and. I'm really proud of you for, for sharing all of it so openly and especially after, like you said, you know, there were only very few people that knew about it and, some of these things, people that probably haven't even heard about, amazing, amazing story. 

So I'm, I'm really,  really glad that you're sharing it, mark, because as we've spoken about before, one of the big things is that in different kind of, I dunno, severity levels, many, many people experience these things, right? 

In different ways, but I'd like to talk a little bit about that feeling of being by yourself and having like, that you're the only one and that, our generation where we've gotta man up and we've gotta fix it ourselves because we're tough guys.

You talk to me a little bit about that and how that showed up and what's changed and how that's benefited you.

Mark Schmidt: that the big, the big thing is,  control, can also use the term imposter syndrome. 

[00:15:00] And there's, there's a part of it where, if I look back at it now, clearly, like I, I've progressed through my career. Through life quite quickly.

You know, I've hit the goals that I've, I've had to achieve. But when I got there, I've always felt like, oh, like am actually good enough to do this. Like, you know, have they made a mistake? 

Am I the right person? But I. In all honesty, I've always found a way to, to get it done, whether it's the right way or the wrong way.

But, you know, having that control to manage everything becomes all encompassing. 

So I would always have to, if I'd go into a position, the team around me, I would, have to check to see also, I suppose, micromanage people too, which, not great for anyone working with me at the time, but and see what, was going on so I could see that was done to the right way, and so I could. Kind of tell myself, it's been done, it's okay and keep going. 

But it's a place to be there. Right? And because when you're in that position, it comes very hard to ask for help point, especially when you kind of have to have your finger on the pulse of everything else that's going on.

[00:16:00] So I. You know, I spoke about my wife early on and she runs her own business. 

She runs a very successful photography business that she runs where she can shoot weddings around the world and, you know, big clients that here in South Africa and abroad. And I. Her pressures are very different to my pressures.

And one thing that I'd never been very good at is communicating the pressures that I was feeling. So I would

you know, look, you don't understand. You don't know what it's like. And then I would kind of isolate myself away, and just kind of go out with people, and leave her at home with the kids, which, you know, incredibly sad to, to think what, what's happened, but also. 

Happy that I'm able to acknowledge and see that, that this can't happen again. But that time away was like, being out and having a drink and, and you know, not being there to face everything else that was going on. 

Then I would have to get a taxi back home and I would have to think about what I was, what I'd done, what I was facing. And what I had to do the next day. So I would wake up hungover. I would be terrible to be around.

I would be unreasonable in other parts. know that I was being unreasonable. 

And that kind of, those feelings just become, you know, more and more like they're just compound over time in terms of the way I treat people and the way I'd feel about myself too. 

[00:17:00] So going back to the imposter syndrome side of things is that I, I've always wanted to impress, and I've always wanted to feel the need to be, people to be impressed with what I'm putting forward, but that pressures it sometimes.

It just, it just can't work. And, you know, that pressure that you put on yourself or I put on myself was, you know, in sales, it's all about reaching your budget and hitting your numbers, and you hit those numbers and it's cool. Then you move on to the next thing, then you move on to the next thing.

And it's just a never ending cycle of, of what's going on. and being alone was, was, was difficult during that time. I like had an amazing wife to support me through it and, I saw you posted about, being away on, on holiday with your, with your family those thoughts that you have, and Absolutely.

Being able to disconnect from, from work and, actual family time. In all honesty, I don't think up until, you know, the last few months in my professional career or since being a dad, you know, eight years ago, I've, I've been able to that disconnect where I'm just like, okay, I'm off. I'm focused on my family.

[00:18:00] They're also really important at the end of the day. If your family are the reason why you're working, right? all of us, you know, so if you can't look after them, what is the point? And look after yourself. So it becomes a very lonely place.

And also with a sales person, you know, you're on the road a lot.

There's a hell of a lot of time when you're by yourself. and those, those times by yourself, that's when reality really kicks in

It's very hard to, you know, to to, to kind of, for me, it became very hard to accept who you are, becoming

Leo Judkins: That's so true, isn't it? And was talking to one of my executive coaching clients earlier, about how one of the hard things in business development, right, and in sales, is that a lot of these deals are made at three in the morning, you know, in some maybe place where we don't wanna be seen and.

and I think it's such a, that is very typical in gaming, right? It's very typical around conferences. So, when you have a certain inclination, like you are in that environment that makes it very easy to slip, right? And how would you advise people to deal with that?

[00:19:00] People that perhaps feel that, The way that they've been dealing with things, with alcohol or with their, their personal lives, that, that they feel that that's no longer sustainable. They wanna make a change, but they don't quite know how to, because this is the way they've always done it, and they're afraid that if they change things, everything might be lost.

Mark Schmidt: Sure.  I can speak from, from my experience, right? And I have these exact thoughts and for so long in terms of what I was actually thinking to the outside world that, you know, everybody thought that, amazing family, amazing job, everything looked great.

Like, you the proper Instagram lifestyle, right?

You just take a peek behind the curtains. It's very, very different. And I was, I was, always nervous for people to actually see what was behind those curtains. But what I've absolutely seen is that speaking up, there's so many people in the same position as, as what I was.

And I'm not saying everyone, but there is a huge amount of people that have reached out to me terms of the stresses that they're facing, the problems that they're facing, whether it be from a substance, alcohol, whether it's mental health, overburdened, at work or in family life and dealing with the constant pressure

[00:20:00] If you do the same thing continuously, I know it's very cliche that that's, there's no change is ever gonna come.

For a couple of days or a week, but you're not gonna have long-lasting change and you don't, you can't expect to, to change absolutely everything overnight. Like any good thing it takes time to build and. For me, one of the biggest worries I had about going back into, the industry and, you know, being sober and, and everything else was the exact thing you made around

Yeah. And how I'm gonna deal with that. And I just, I said to, to my wife, look, I'm just gonna be straight up about it with, with the people.

A fact I can't, I can't avoid going to bars and events. I'm going to be, you know, straight up with everybody and just say, listen, I'm sober. I don't drink. I don't mind if you have a drink, but, you know, like I just want to put it out there. And it's been received incredibly well.

You know, the support from people has been, there's been fantastic. I also know that like there's these limitations in terms of what I can and can't do. 

[00:21:00]So, going out for a, for a dinner that with drinks, et cetera. I know that there's, I need to kind of say like, look, I'm guys, I'm out of here at 10, or whatever it may be.

Which does the job and kind of lay down those boundaries. But also very fortunate enough that I've built a, an incredible network over the years that, a lot of these guys that are, that are in the network that I have. 

Trust me, I trust them. You know, we've done repeat business over the years based on that, trust that we have. I think it would be quite different now for me if I was just entering the industry now,  and not really having the network that, that I do have. 

Yeah, it, it's, it's about boundaries and, you know, knowing what you are there for and what you want to achieve, you know, and I in terms of what I might say on social media, LinkedIn, and be outspoken. 

I speak my mind and I speak what, what I believe. And the, the point with that is that I think speaking up and about what I'm going through, also provide safety for myself so people know my story.

[00:22:00] So, in one sense, very selfish, but also in the other sense. I know that it's, it offers kind of a lifeline for somebody else that might be out going through the same thing. know, the first time I did it where I kind of, I'll say, came clean, to the industry, I was taken back by the messages that, that I got, you know, from dms, from, from people, and. I'm no therapist, but you know, I've got a bit of,  a background in, you know, how to really stack things up. 

I was, I was, was able to, you know, listen and, and provide a, a supportive Yeah. And, know, just say, look, well done for reaching out.  Things can get better and they will get better if you, you know, if you do take it seriously and you want to do change and. 

This is what's worked for me, but I suggest that you, you speak to a professional and you know, just be open with those people around you. And it's been great to see that kind of, move forward and, and progress into, to different parts of, of,

And of the things that I'm looking to set up now is kind of a. A support group, for our gaming people that are going through these, challenges, whether it's drink or mental health. And I suppose I spoke,  about it, I think it was on the gambling files website.

[00:23:00] Where, you know, you look at the pressures of, ice, for example, SBC Lisbon or any of these big shows around the world and the expectations that you have there. People that are sober are battling through these parts. it would just be nice to have a kind of a group of people that are in industry that, , we know for sure that are going through these problems. That can just be there to say like, Hey guys, I'm struggling. 

Can anyone meet up for a coffee before the show starts this morning? Or, you know,  order free this night for, for dinner and then, you know, early nights or whatever it may be. And I think that that just kind of, the more people that we can. 

Reach out to and help and avoid a situation that nearly happened to me. for me, that would, would mean, you know, it would be successful if we can just help one person going forward. So 

Leo Judkins: You are already doing it, Mark. You're already doing it by just talking about it. And I think because that's the key, right? The key is for people to go, no, that's exactly what I'm feeling. That's exactly what I'm going through. And it might not be, like I said earlier, it might not be to the same level.

[00:24:00] But this thoughts and feelings and behaviors on some sort of scale might be very similar and very often the problem is that we're, that we feel we are alone and just being able to recognize that you're not the only one and that it's okay to talk about. 

But I wanna touch on something that you said, which I think is, is really important here. All of this is kind of comes from fear, right? Fear as in imposter syndrome, , is fear of being found out. And then you are micromanaging because you are fearful that somebody's gonna see that you shouldn't actually be in that position.

You're working harder than everybody else just to prove that you do belong there. And, but also fear of change is often a reason why people go to the brink, let it get really, really bad because they have feel that they perhaps are a certain character. they're the entertainment of the night.

And if they would change, if they would stop drinking completely, for example, who's left, you know, and how, how would people perceive that? and so that, that's why often that fear of, okay, I'm gonna be seen differently is why people let it escalate all the way to, to serious breakdown.

[00:25:00] And obviously we want to help people not get there and help people create behavior change. Well, before that. 

[00:26:00] So how do you see that from the people that have reached out to you, mark, from you telling your story and, and people going, wow, that's, that's, you know, I'm, I'm struggling with that as well.

Are those some of the things that you see coming up as well? And, and if so, what's, what are, what are some of the things people are doing and perhaps working for them?

Mark Schmidt: what I've seen is that it's, it's across the board, you know, C level execs, some people that I never even thought I would be in communication with, to, sales manager to, people that own product. It's, it's across the board. 

And there's certain generations I think that understand what needs to, to be done. 

And it, I suppose in terms of approaching the need to, to ask for help and not, and being really fearless in terms of adversity and, and, putting things out there and, being accepting to, to change, et cetera, and, and looking at ways to better themselves. 

But if I look at generation. And older, you know, we, we've grown up with kind of, you just, you just get it done. You don't ask for help

[00:27:00] You power through it and you know, the white knuckling and all of that, and you don't show fear and you don't show that, anything's really bothering you. And I. 

There's only so much time that you can keep doing that , before it kind of runs out. And you get to a point, like you said, where actually got no runway left anymore.

You are absolutely done. And from a South African perspective, males here are still very much like you.

You just kind of, bash through it and you get it done and you don't really ask for help. I always had the hope, I always had it there, but I also felt that if I had to ask for help, I would be seen differently and I'd be seen

As, weaker than, that I wanted to be seen as. So that was a fear, I suppose, from my side. But the biggest fear I have now is that I know that there are friends of mine within the industry that are still kind of grappling with the same things that I grappled with over the years, and. Might get to a point where it's too late for them, which is obviously really scary for me too, And I can see it happening, you know, and like, I just wanna say that if, if I'm able to. 

[00:28:00] Get to a better point. Whereas where I'm now, and I know there's a lot of work that still needs to be done, that anyone can do because for me, there was really no way out, in my mind.

That's proper fear when you just look and look around you and you've got the beautiful house, you've got the beautiful kids, the beautiful wife, you know, great job. But you just can't see a way of, of ever finding happiness or being accepted again.

And. I was in that place, I managed to somehow get out and, you know, it's, it's been bloody hard, don't get me wrong, but you, there is always a way to, to get through it. 

And that part of it, Pierre, and that thought process for people, for me just to understand it and maybe just kind of think about it for more than, a couple of seconds. If that can help a handful of people, then that, that's for me, that would just be be amazing.

Leo Judkins: The advice I would always give people is just get help. You know, just get someone to help. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a therapist, can be a friend, can be whatever. It doesn't really matter, but get some help because I. When you're stuck in your own head.

[00:29:00] Like I had, I had exactly the same thing I was drinking every night and I, I didn't know how to give that up because I thought that if, and going out all the time, and I, I thought, okay, if I'm gonna give that up, then what do I have left? You know, what do I have left in life and, and how it's just work and or if I stop working earlier and try to switch off, like they're gonna find me out and I don't belong here.

Right. And you're not gonna solve it in your own head. that's the biggest difficulty that people don't see is that okay, if you don't see a way out, are, you're stuck in your own bottle, right? And so, of course you can't read the label. brain surgeon's not gonna operate on their own head either.

It's not really gonna work. So I think just getting an outside view is such a game changer. When was the first time that happened for you?  mark. I'd love to hear that.

Mark Schmidt: I would say I was about 24, 25. I had a bad experience, with the therapist at the time. Then, the advice given was, really not helpful to me any in any way. And I, I think it was more along the lines of, of tough love than support.

[00:30:00] Feeling like,  why did I put myself through this? I'd say the last year, year or so, I've been seeing a therapist here in my local, local town who had been good and kind of like just kind of, I. Settled me down in terms of like, made me kind of reevaluate what I was thinking and, slowed me down to a point where I could start kind of thinking without making these snapshot decisions. 

The real change for me was, seeing a guy called Michael Ferron who was he specialized, he's an addiction specialist. So he could see straight through, everything that I was saying to him. There was no ways I could, trick him into, to anything. He, he saw it straight away and he, he, he calls a spade a spade. And I've got an incredibly frank and open relationship with him, and I see him very often.

[00:31:00] With him. He puts in very kind of lifelike, mechanisms to, to help me kind of get over these hurdles. We talk about what, what I'm facing, is real pressure, what isn't real pressure.  sometimes I'm convincing myself that, this really needs to get done, when actually it doesn't need to be.

And, know, also convincing myself that in order to be, Kind of a, a good employee, I need to be busy the whole time.

What is busy? Is it productive? Is it actually given value or is it just kind of filling your diary up with, with back to back meetings all day to produce something.

So lot of those kind of thought processes and back thoughts that I'd had before all kind of changed in a lot of respects and. It's been incredibly freeing to me in terms of how I structure my day, structure my week. 

There's still certain things that I'm, I'm, I get right for a period of time and then I kind of fall back on, and then when things are kind of going haywire again, he will say to me, okay, but you're not doing the following.

Like, we agreed and go, oh, okay, cool. Like, you know, make the, yeah, we make the, make the change. So. Been, it's been good. I used to dread the, the drive. It's about an hour drive into his, his practice.

[00:32:00] And I used to hate having to drive there because I knew that I was going to be, absolutely grilled by, have you done this? Have you done that? 

But it's actually got to the point now where. I wouldn't say I enjoy the sessions, but in a weird way I do because it's, it's challenging and, I'm left with the kind of new way to, to think about life and approach things differently.

And, I can also challenge him on what he says to me, which is, which is great. 

Leo Judkins: That's one of the big things, mark, right, is that we have this tendency to just kinda lie to ourselves and we know we're doing it, but we're, and, and then we're great at lying to everybody else about it as well. 

And sometimes, You start having these questions, which are really normal questions, like, do I actually have a problem or not?

And I, and none of these things in my mind anyway are binary. It's never a yes or no. It's actually when, when it shows up as an issue in your life and you are, you are, feeling that this is the thing that you're doing is not sustainable, then you've got an issue. How you label that issue doesn't really matter, but it's an issue that you need addressing.

[00:33:00] Right. And. I think the best thing you can do is actually having someone like you're talking about now, somebody that puts a mirror in front of you and, sees through the bullshit, and actually you don't calls a spade a spade and goes, well, that's not necessarily true. It's uncomfortable, but none of, none of our growth happens inside of our comfort zone.

Right. So, just my last question Mark, really is,  for the, for anybody that finds themselves in these thoughts as well of, of, you know, not knowing how to get out, feeling that, that the, the things that they are doing is, just not a lifestyle that they want to keep on living, but they're fearful of, of creating those changes and what people might think.

What's the very first step that they could take? Easy, simple, quick things that they could do.

Mark Schmidt: I think you, you go to somebody that you trust. And that you respect and that will treat you with respect to, and any, any one of us has, you know, somebody like that in our life and just say, you know, these are the thoughts that I'm having, are the issues that I'm

I just need to share it with somebody. It doesn't have to be a big, you know, big speech. 

[00:34:00] It can just say from, from our side, I'm, I'm not sure what to do. For me, as you said earlier, speaking to a professional and reaching out to somebody who actually can assist you is the best way to do it. but for keeping it in, it's just never gonna solve anything and you're never gonna be able to do it yourself. 

So, the world's changed a hell of a lot. There are so many different ways that you can get help now. You can get through it in various ways. 

There's so many different ways you can get help. And I, again, the thing for that just kind of remember is that there is always a way out. There's always a way to, to get better. There's always a way to, you know, to get through what you're doing. And I know some, some people might be thinking like, oh, it's easier said than done.

But like I said earlier, if I was able to do it, me, you, you, you can definitely do it too.  

You know, from, from my side. Again, I'm not a therapist. I'm not there to help, but if somebody just wants to reach out and say, you know, I want to chat, it stays confidentially between the two of us.

And, I'm not gonna be able to tell you how to fix your life, but I can just be a friend or, you know, somebody to support me. 

[00:35:00] Biggest thing, don't, don't keep it in, there's a lot of people that will be there that will be willing to help you more than you actually are, will ever really believe.

Leo Judkins: love it, mark, and don't wait for the right time. It's the last one I'll add to it because the right time will actually never happen.

Well, the right time there is a right time, which is was yesterday was the best time. The time after that was today. So, you know, I. Alright, mark. Hey, thanks a lot mate.

Really,  really appreciate you sharing and opening up. And you are,  you're such a great example for, for so many people in the industry that,  that struggle with these thoughts and feelings and behaviors. And I mean, today you've given them a great way to actually start tackling some of those.

So,  yeah, again, if anybody's struggling or feeling that they're stuck with any of the things that Mark spoke about, he's, please reach out to him. Loads of experience in this area and, um. Yeah, happy to have a confidential conversation, so thanks again, mark.

Mark Schmidt: [00:36:00] Thanks. Thanks for having me and thanks very much for having this platform for people to speak up about the real human side of the industry.