Podcast Episode 14: The Keys to iGaming Leadership Roles with Andrew Bulloss

Leo Judkins: [00:01:00] Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins and as an ex iGaming Director turned Performance Coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain, bet365, Flutter and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. 

In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. 

So with that being said, let's dive in.

Leo Judkins: Okay, Welcome to the iGaming Leader. Today I'm interviewing Andrew Bullis, who is a partner at Orgis Burns. I've been super excited to speak to you, Andrew, because, like I said to you before, and I think you are the magician behind the curtain of so many boardrooms.

I love it. So, hey, welcome. Welcome to the, welcome to the podcast.

Andrew Bullos No, thank you for having me. Delighted to be here.

Leo Judkins: [00:02:00] let me kind of start with what actually moved you into heading up the gaming division and specializing in that specific area.

Andrew Bullos Yep. No problem. So yeah, I joined Dodgers 14 years ago. We employ 1200 people globally. We've got 66 officers. We're a big old firm now. I originally joined just in our sports practice. So this was the team that had just hired the CEO of the London Olympics, and then moved on to the COO of Man United and we're starting to build that fantastic sports practice.

There was four of us and we were based over in Hanover square in central London. I'd been doing recruitment for about 15 years before that, but certainly at a lower level. And I thought sports, a real passion of mine. Let's, let's go and do it. Let's go and join the sports practice, which is what I did. And it quickly became fairly evident that at the time I would have been in the shadow of the person running that practice because he was Mr. Sport and he'd done all the big trophy assignments. And I thought, well, do I want to do that? Or do I actually want to plow my own furrow, so to speak? So

[00:03:00] We did a couple of appointments actually back in the day for, an operator. And then I spoke to the team here and said, look, I think there's a real opportunity here in iGaming and betting. This was 2011. So it was just as markets were regulating. It Innovation was starting to kick off in the sector. It was way before things were happening in the States. And I did some due diligence into it and went out and met a bunch of people in the sector. And within six months, it became fairly clear that I could carve a niche in betting and gaming. I'm not a punter. I've very rarely gamble. I'm more of a video gamer, to be honest.

 So that's when I set up The betting and gaming practice back in 2011. And then we bolted on video games onto that. And then now we're an entertainment practice. We've got 24 people based in London. We did 90 assignments last year at senior level in 14 countries.

So, it's been an awesome journey actually the last 12, 14 years or so.

Leo Judkins: I can imagine. Very, super impressive. How did you find that initially, Andrew, when you kind of started specializing in this area, you thought, okay, this may be a niche that needs my help, that needs my serving. How did you feel about it initially?

[00:04:00] What were some bigger harmons and surprises that you had as you, as you dove into it? 

Andrew Bullos it's probably quite daunting actually coming into a brand new sector, particularly one that I didn't know too much about. But I kind of immersed myself in it as much as I could. I think the advice that I pass on to people here who are starting out on a journey in recruitment or executive search is try and meet as many people as possible.

I think, in the first year I met something like 400, 450 people. And it's just building up, what's the information that you can garner from them? That you can learn more about you then create your own opinion. Meeting loads of people, bear in mind that odds just were just not known at all in the betting and gaming space.

 Recruitment had typically been done through. boutique firms through contingent approaches and a big old search firm like ours hadn't really looked at this space before. So it was all quite new. I had to try and win people's trust, both candidates, clients who are ultimately the payers of our fees to help us do the work. So fast forward 12, 13 years, I I'd like to think we've had an impact on the sector in some way, shape, or form.

[00:05:00] And certainly it takes up, a significant chunk of my, time and my life now working in the sector. And it's still a sector I think that is growing and, delighted that I can play my part in that growth in some way.

Leo Judkins: How did you run it initially were you able to run it almost as a startup within the business, or did you have to follow really strict procedures and guidelines and kind of go with what everybody, what all the other areas in the business were doing? What did that look like?

Andrew Bullos No, I just ran it as, as I wanted to really, I was given

free reign. So they said, look, here's, here's your budget.

Here's the numbers that you probably need to hit. Here's your marketing and business development budget. Yep. Go out and do it. 

So that the way that you would operate in the betting and iGaming space, and we have a shipping practice, for example, we have an aviation practice. It's, they're so different in terms of sectors, you have to be quite nuanced about it. So no, I was given kind of carte blanche to decide what I wanted to do.

And I wrote a business plan and figured out how to grow it. And the rest was this history, as they say.

Leo Judkins: [00:06:00] That also means that there will have been volatility throughout, not just from what the market, how the market operated and how the market's grown and shrunk, but also in terms of competition around you.

So what are some of the highs and lows that you've experienced on that journey and how did you navigate them?

Andrew Bullos Highs were obviously getting the first few mandates through the door, and not just winning the mandates, but also closing them. And actually, the satisfaction that that gives, we're not a kind of bums on seats type recruitment business, actually, if you think about the level at which we operate, board, C suite, C level minus one, the impact of some of these individuals on, The organizations that they're leaving the organizations that they're joining. And in many cases, when we're relocating people halfway around the world, the impact on their families

is pretty significant, actually. So. we've got to make sure that we take the time to approach these projects appropriately and carefully. 

[00:07:00]But the sense of satisfaction when you get it right is great, both from my own self satisfaction, the satisfaction of the team that's worked on it, but also the hiring organization, the individuals that we're putting into these high profile positions.

So I think getting the first couple of those was great. I think another high point is just, I go back to having an opinion on things. The fact that people want to hear your opinion, I think is really satisfying. And that's one of the things that I like to do whenever I'm going to talk to organizations is, particularly if you're talking to owners or investors or, CEOs, they're just people at the end of the day.

And they're paying you to provide them a service. They're paying you to provide an opinion yet. They're not the, recruitment expert. They're not the search expert. We are, so they want to hear from us. So I'm very happy to give my opinion, and do it in a very respectful way.

So I think they're the two things that the kind of track record and also the voice maybe that I've been given, uh, lows losing a search to the competition is, is never great. You know, it happens. We can't win them all, but I think you've just got to learn from that experience. 

[00:08:00] What could we have done differently? What can we have done better? I was just on a call this morning with a big organization where we're one of their preferred executive search partners and you know we didn't get the last one we pitched for and I said you what can we improve on what can we do better I've got some really valuable feedback that we'll take into the next pitch certainly when I was starting out as well people who didn't see the value in what we do. 

They just saw recruitment as a bit of a commodity maybe. I think that's changed over time in, in the sector as the sector's grown and as these businesses have become much more mature, and much more international. And, and there's definitely a greater demand for a different type of talent now than perhaps there was 10 years ago, I would argue. So It can be quite exhausting when you are Investing time and effort in meeting people and nothing comes out of it. 

But, you know, thankfully I've been around long enough now that people know who I am. Which is helpful.

Leo Judkins: [00:09:00] Which helps. Okay. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. So on the win side, where you're talking about finding your voice and being in a room and people listening to your, your opinion, How's that gone? Especially as somebody that, as you said in the beginning, you didn't have a lot of expertise in the industry.

 How did that make you feel? Did any sort of imposter syndrome come up in the beginning? Did you need some validation there? What did that look like? What did that journey look like?

Andrew Bullos I think anybody that doesn't suffer from imposter syndrome is probably lying. Honestly, I think everyone probably suffers from it at some point in their career. And even having done this for as long as I have 20 or 25 years now, I've been doing recruitments in various shapes or forms. I still get imposter syndrome going into certain meetings, definitely. I think the important thing is just being super prepared, you know, if we're hiring for a CEO of an organization, we need to know almost as much about that organization and what makes them tick and the competitive landscape in which they operate.

[00:10:00] And what are the challenges ahead for that business in the next 6, 12, 18 months? And what's the culture and what's the values and what do they have in their current leadership team that needs to be augmented by a new CEO? And we've got to know all that information before we go into the pitch.

We've also got to know Who are the likely candidates when we're going for that pitch? Who do we think would fit based on our experience? We've got to have some benchmarks. We've got to have some calibrations. We've got to be able to provide our judgment. We've got to be able to be super informed on that. So I think a lot of that comes through preparation. And, you know, I've spent a long time in the sector now, but I've also got a brilliant team around me that Help me with that preparation and just the sheer amounts of data that you can get through various third party sites like PitchBook and things is incredible.

And that helps us to be well informed and well armed going into those. I think that's the first thing. The second thing as well. And maybe this comes a little bit with age. I turned 50 in October, last year. I was having this conversation with someone in my team last week. Maybe it's about not caring as much about what people

think. Of course, I care about what people think of me. It used to be a bit debilitating.

[00:11:00] And, now it's not. Look, if people wanna work with me, they'll work with me. If I can show that I'm a subject matter expert and I can show that, I can find really great people that have a massive impact on their organizations will hire us to find their next CEO or COO or whatever it is. If they just don't like me, then there's not a lot I can do about it. So, I like to think I'm a pretty likable person and, I can build up a reasonable amount of rapport with people, but some people just choose not to work with us and choose to work with other people.

So it comes with age, I think

Leo Judkins: Yeah, it's almost quite confidence as well, right? I love the fact that you're saying If anybody's saying that they don't, face imposter syndrome for sure. They are lying because it's natural. It's a natural part of just being. Wanting to achieve something and not quite knowing whether or not you're going to get that yet. And I think that's super natural. The second thing I love about it is what you're saying about being confident in yourself, and a lot of that comes with just being authentic, right? And being true to yourself.

Andrew Bullos Totally.

Leo Judkins: [00:12:00] often, when we try to please someone or we're trying to portray someone that we're not because we think that's going to close the deal or what? That's when a lot of issues start happening. So have you always felt like that, Andrew? Is that Or is that something that you get burnt by it and therefore readjust?

What does that look like?

Andrew Bullos Just on the imposter syndrome bit, I think imposter syndrome shows you care a little bit as well.

It shows, it shows these meetings have meaning to you.

Leo Judkins: Yep. 

Andrew Bullos that you care about the outcomes. If you're not nervous before going into a meeting, then I would argue that you don't care as much as you should about it.

I was never a particular confident teenager, I suppose. I think what bred the confidence in me was going away, traveling. I spent nearly two years away from home traveling around India, Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand. And that was awesome. 

Cause you meet so many amazing people from different walks of life. And, I think I came back to my kind of small town in Lancashire, which is where I grew up a very different person and realized that I, you know, I had to move to London. So that's kind of what I did really.

[00:13:00] But I think the confidence comes through experience. It comes from learning from managers, learning from leaders, learning from people that you meet in the day job. I meet some amazing CEOs. I meet some amazing investors. I meet some amazing board members just talking to them about their journey., I met a fantastic CEO, at the back end of 2023. 

And I said, how do you manage to do everything that you do? You've got an incredible amount of things on your to do list. You've got an enormous business here to run. How do you do it? And they said, I only do the things that only I can do.

I immediately went back to my office and I wrote down all the things that I do in the day job and then ticked all the things that only I can do. And then last year, one I was able to focus on what I'm good at, and two, I was also able to give a huge amount of responsibility to people in my team of things that I used to do that I felt only I could do, but actually give to other people.

[00:14:00] So it's little things like that, just little tidbits and things that you get from meetings that, for me, have, have kind of informed how I work. Approach my job and approach kind of what I do day to day, really. 

Leo Judkins: What a great example, Andrew. And it also goes to show how one simple conversation can really create profound change in the way that you show up as a leader. 

And especially in your area, you must come into contact with so many Pieces of thought leadership where you know that you can apply to your role, so what are maybe some of the things that you've picked up over the years from the people that you've spoken to and applied to your leadership style?

Andrew Bullos what's more relevant here is to talk about how the kind of traits of leaders that. I see in people that we're hiring for other organizations.

There's a couple of things here. What one, if I may, am I allowed to recommend a couple of books?

Leo Judkins: Absolutely. 

Andrew Bullos That kind of starts with Y by Simon Sinek is excellent. finding meaning in why do we do what we do?

Why do we get out of bed in the morning? It's all very well talking about the how, why do we do this? And I think

[00:15:00] That was a bit of an eye opener for me when I read it last year. And the other one, which I read quite a few years ago, but still refer to, on a fairly frequent basis is a book called secrets of CEOs.

And it's a book that's based on interviews with 150 global chief execs across multiple industries. It's written by a guy called Steve tapping.

That's very good. And I've actually used that previously to think about some of the interview questions that I asked. Chief execs whenever we go through a process.

So that's very good. I think leadership is  It's context specific. I think it depends on the context and the stage of the journey that a particular organization's on.

So let's take a chief exec as an example. person's coming into a turnaround scenario. That's very different than if they're coming into a steady state business, if they're coming into a turnaround, they're going to need to be. Super decisive. They're going to need to act with pace.

They're going to need to be able to, you know, have experience of running a transformation. They're going to need to be courageous. They're going to need to get people behind a vision, really winning hearts and minds, which is very different. 

[00:16:00] I mean, some of those aspects you could argue you could use in a steady state business, but actually those are the superpowers that that particular individual needs in order to sort out and turn around that business. there's probably three or four. generic traits that we look for in C level leaders in this sector, which I would argue are things that I probably look for in myself as well when I'm doing the day job. I think the most underrated one is curiosity.

Andrew Bullos back four or five years ago, that word never made it onto a, C level job spec or a candidate brief and what we've seen over the course of the last couple of years certainly is that's making its way slowly and surely up the ladder to become a really important personality trait of leaders not just in this sector but in any sector. 

Why? I think, if you're curious, You look both inside of sector and outside of sector for ideas. You are interested in other people's opinions. And if you're really curious, it also means that you listen to their answers. So there's a knock on effect of actually making you a really good listener. You can be curious about technology.

[00:17:00] You can be curious about products. You can be curious about what happens in different sectors and how could that play into what we're doing in this particular industry. Curious about different business models. I think there's loads around that. So for me, that is an underrated trait.

 I think the second one is about. Empathy and authenticity and look the word authentic leaders has been thrown around for the last couple of years, particularly during COVID when we were putting chief execs and leaders front and center. Employees were demanding more of their face time, more communication about what was going on.

And, we've put a lot of pressure on leaders really to be able to do that. And a lot of them can step up. A lot of them find it quite challenging, but I think being authentic and showing empathy again is a hallmark of any good. Chief exec and C suite leader nowadays in this sector. you've got to be able to show high levels of EQ. 

[00:18:00] You've got to be able to show high levels of self awareness, but it goes back to what you said earlier about being yourself. You've got to be yourself. That helps to breed trust, particularly in the people that work in the organization that you're leading. And then I think the other one is about collaboration and having that kind of collaborative mindset. 

What does that mean? That means if you're in a leadership role, building a culture that is collaborative, particularly when we're working in hybrid environments, that's important. A culture that collaborates to drive innovation, and I'm not a lone voice here in saying that there isn't a huge amount of innovation in the industry. 

I think there could be more. I definitely think some of it is around what cultures do we have in this industry and could these cultures be more collaborative in order to drive that kind of innovation expertise. 

That collaborative approach breeds into bringing people from diverse backgrounds and diverse thinking together in order to get out of that echo chamber. So I think, look, for me, , they're probably the, the three key ones that are, I think are generic traits at the moment that I would look for in every single person that I interview really for a C suite role.

Leo Judkins: [00:19:00] One of the things that you mentioned there is that, you see that there's a different type of talent net required now than there was perhaps 10 years ago. You tell me a little bit more about why you think that's changed and why it matters so much.

Andrew Bullos There's probably three reasons. The industry is much more competitive than it ever was.

It's much more international than it ever was. So if you think about how. Businesses and organizations are winning. They're winning on the basis of, certainly if you look at it from an operator, even from a supplier perspective, they're winning on the basis of having scale in some respects.

That's not the only reason they're winning, but they're winning on the basis of having scale. It's a highly competitive market. So, I think for me, it's about. Impact, impact on organizations and how you are creating value within organizations. 

If I go back eight, nine, 10 years ago , we need a really good product person to come in and lead our casino business. Okay. Right. That's a fairly straightforward hire. There you go. We need a really good trading person to come in and run our trading team for our sports book. Okay. It was fairly black and white.

[00:20:00] I think now if you do that type of hire, yes, you are hiring for a certain amount of skills and experience, but then you're also thinking, okay, well, where does our business need to be in two, three years? Are we hiring for the future? Where's the impact that this person's going to have? Where's the value that this individual is going to have on our organization?

And I'm not sure about that. 10 years ago, I mean, there are some exceptions, but a large portion of organizations in the sector weren't looking for value from people. They were just looking for people to do a job,

And I also think it's a really, ever changing world in which we operate, changing regulation, as I've said, highly competitive.

And then you take on board all the kinds of geopolitical and macroeconomic things that are going on in the world. Leaders just need to be super agile. They just need to be really, really responsive.

It's not as easy to lead now as it was 10 years ago because of everything that's going on.

Leo Judkins: [00:21:00] I think it also goes to show that, before it used to be a lot about , the amount of hours that you put in and the expertise that you bring to the hours. I think nowadays it's more about what the value that you bring to those hours can still be long hours, but it's really the value that you bring to those hours.

And value of the ideas And a lot of that then comes down to your your mental capacity, how energetic you feel, uh, how adaptable you are, how you and how you therefore lead an organization through change, through challenges 

But how do you have you seen leaders themselves change?

Have you seen people change? And how, like, have they done that? Some people find it really difficult to change. Others are super adaptable. So what are some of the things that you've seen work really well and how's that perhaps impacted their future?

Andrew Bullos So if I think about what I was looking for in a leader. When I was doing interviews 10 years ago compared to what I'm, what I'm looking for now. I'll go back to the point. I'm looking for people that have added value in organizations that they've worked for previously.

[00:22:00] Is that value around people? Is it value around revenue? Is it value around other KPIs? Where have they grown something? Where have they impacted, where they had their impact? Is there a progression to, to what they've done so far in their career? Can you see that logically? Can you see that they've been given more accountability?

Can you see that they've been given more responsibility, more ownership? But I also think here there's a piece around self awareness and it's amazing how many when you sit in a meeting you and you earn an interview and you ask a very what I think is a very very simple question. 

You've got all this experience gained over the last 10 to 15 years. What do you want to do with do you want to do next? a pretty straightforward question, right? You would assume that everybody has an answer for that. Not everybody does so I think for me, people that do have an answer to that, I mean, some people have a very long answer for that, 

So I think that level of self awareness is really, really important. What are you really good at? What's your superpower? And how do you ensure that you play to those strengths to allow yourself to have impact or superpower? What are your areas of development and what are you doing to work on them? 

[00:23:00] That's not to say you're kind of trying to balance your strengths and your weaknesses, that's not, you should always play to your strengths, but equally you should always be able to upgrade and upskill in the areas in which you're weak. And so for me, what's changed, there are a lot more people that are starting to think about their own development rather than being told what they need to develop.

So It shows a level of responsibility around their own personal growth. It shows a level of responsibility around where they're going. And there's a couple of things you can do here. 

One, you can ask for feedback from people in your organization 360 feedback, which is fairly easy thing to do, but you've got to be fairly brave and fairly courageous to do it because the feedback that you get may not always be. positive. I would also advocate asking people that you think may have a negative view of you.

I think that's always helpful rather than people that are going to look at you through roast into glasses. So that's the first thing I ask for feedback. I think the second thing you people can do is do some sort of psychometric assessment.

You can do that off your own back. There's plenty of, you know, tests online that you could do.

You can do it through a search firm. You know, there's plenty of things that you can look at. And that helps you to figure out what, what are your natural personality traits and what are the ones that perhaps you might need to expend more energy and effort to exhibit. So I think that's the second thing you can do. 

[00:24:00] I think the third thing you can do, and you, you know, I've put yourself out of your comfort zone and it's never too early to start by getting a board seat.

There's a lot of C level execs in the industry that hold board seats outside of sector.

Why do I think that's important? One, because being an exec versus being a non executive director or a board advisor is a very different type of job. Exec, you're much more hands on, you're much more driving the strategy, you're much more into the detail, into the weeds. Non exec is People talk about it being a critical friend. You're not expected to offer a solution. You're not expected to dive in with the answers. You're expected to listen, acknowledge, and try and help the board and the execs to find an answer. 

Andrew Bullos Can adapt to that. So I think that's one thing. It takes people out of their comfort zone from a learning to step back a little bit. think and then react rather than just automatically reacting to every given situation. Why else do I think it's important? 

[00:25:00] The learnings that you get sitting around a board table are invaluable when going back into your day job. If you're sitting on the board of an online travel business and working in the iGaming sector as an exec, undoubtedly there will be things that that online travel business are talking about around the boardroom. You could think, oh, that's a totally different perspective and way of looking at a particular problem that I've had in the day job. 

I can take that back into the day. Is it going to work? Let's see if it works. Let's try it. And I think just being around, you know, when you sit around a board, you're sitting around lawyers, bankers, investors, management consultants, other, well established portfolio, non exec directors, board advisors, just the wealth of experience that you get sitting around that board table is so, so helpful. 

So I would, advocate doing that. As soon as possible in your career, particularly if you are in a C level role, now you should be thinking about getting a board seat. Doesn't have to be in a listed business, could be in a private equity business, could be in a venture capital business, could be on a charity board.

It doesn't matter, but just having a different perspective, looking at things through a different lens, I think is, um.

Leo Judkins: [00:26:00] Yep. Makes a lot of sense. 

I've got some questions from our clients in our iGaming Leader Mastermind and one of them actually goes into that from, from Fintan. 

[00:27:00] So preparing as a senior exec for board level or for non executive, directorship roles, how, what would your advice be for, if you want to start moving into that direction, what are some of the steps that people can take, because that can be very overwhelming, can feel like a huge first step. How, how do people go about it?

Andrew Bullos So, I think there's three things you can do. And this is my most word, superpower. But you've got to figure out what are your superpowers. What are you

really good at? If you're going to join a board, What are they going to get from you? What are you really, really, really good at? And it may be that you've got a functional skill.

Maybe you're an experienced chief product officer. Maybe you've got experience in as an executive taking a business from private to listing through an IPO. You know, there's something about your experience that makes it a. Okay, so you've got to figure that out. Where's the value that you bring to your board

Yes, you need to understand governance and you need to understand how a board works. But actually boards now are looking at it as a collective of individuals with different sweet spots and superpowers. 

[00:28:00] Right. So what's yours? You've got to figure that out.

The second thing I think is figure out what sort of board you want to join. What is it about the ownership model that you might be interested in? What is it about the commercial model is about the nature of the business. 

Do you want to join a land based business? Do you want to join a digital business? Is it a business that, you know, does it have a purpose? Is it a business that's going to be meaningful in five years? What's the vision? And actually you're going to be spending a reasonable amount of time with these board members and these execs. Do you actually like them?

Leo Judkins: Such an underrated question. Oh. You know, like, it's such an important 

Andrew Bullos If you're sitting around a boardroom, do I like working with these people? Can I, Can I, can I get along with them? . Yes, you need to be able to, there needs to be healthy tension and there needs to be challenge and there needs to be debate.

But actually, at the end of the day, do you like them? And then I think the third thing you can do to prepare is think about who's in your network that can help you get your first board seat.

[00:29:00] And it normally takes, I would say, some people have been lucky and done it in six to nine months, but it normally takes 12 months to get your first board seat.

And it can take as long as 18 months. That's why I say start early. But think about the people who are day in, day out. Sitting around the boardrooms. Who are they? Other non execs that you know, other advisors that you know, investors, CEOs, and all that professional services community. I mentioned lawyers, accountants, management consultants, the people who are sitting around boards day in, day out.

And they're the people that are likely to hear of these advisor or non exec roles first before anybody else.

Leo Judkins: Network is your net worth. So, Andrew, I've got another question from, Luke was asking about, your views on inside the industry versus outside. So there's very polarizing opinions in different companies about, you know, recruiting for experience within the sector versus outside of the sector.

[00:30:00] What are your views on it? And especially what are your experiences with it from a results point of view? So can we almost maybe quantify this if, if even possible?

Andrew Bullos So I, I think, I think there are certain roles where you would always advocate having a industry hire because the skill set required is so industry specific.

So I would say, , anything in that kind of world of, online casino heads, trading directors, sports book directors, things like that are very, very industry specific. When we've done trading director roles previously, we've looked at people that have sat in investment banks. We've looked at people that have sat in asset managers who, you know, who understand Algorithmic based financial services, trading, and who are often are very passionate punters. 

And when push comes to shove, actually the clients of nine times out of 10, they've gone for someone from inside the industry. I think where it becomes easier is in, functional roles., because there isn't as much [00:31:00] requirement for industry expertise. 

If you're a CFO, arguably you need to be better at being a CFO than you do needing to understand the sector. I would also argue that's the same for roles in people and culture and human resources. It's the same in legal. I think it's also the same in operations. So CEO's and, roles that are overall responsible, for the customer. 

And then I also think it's, it's the same in when you get into senior commercial roles, arguably some senior product roles. My experience of this is it depends on the mindset of the organization what often happens is you set off on the, on the start of the journey, talking with the organization and saying, okay, well, we're looking for a new CEO. The benefits of these individuals inside of sector are X, Y, Z. Let's satisfy your curiosity and go outside. And they get really excited about it.

Yeah, let's do that. Let's go and look at people. And then. You present them with a really interesting short list of people from diverse range of backgrounds and they end up going for the industry higher. 

[00:32:00] So we can only do so much in presenting the backgrounds of people from outside. And it is a risk hiring people from outside of sector and that is a challenge, but I also think it's about the mindset of the organization that they're coming into. 

So we've put people into roles previously from outside of sector. And when they've started dealing with colleagues within the business, the colleagues have seen them as an outsider.

So it's all about the kind of messaging, I suppose. So colleagues will look at them and go, you're from outside the sector. What can you bring? So they don't give them enough time. And it's amazing how organizations you know, they spend all this time to, to all intents and purposes, dating candidates, right? And trying to get

through what can be a three to six month process. And then day one, they suddenly expect them just to figure out how the organization works on day one. It's absolutely nuts.

So if you're, if you're going to hire someone from, Outside the industry, I think having a really clear onboarding plan, how do decisions get made? Who can we introduce you to in the first two, three, four weeks that can help you acclimatize quicker? 

[00:33:00] You know, what are the really critical things that you need to know? To quote another, book by, Nate Silver. how do you figure out the signals from the noise when you're looking at reporting and when you're looking at KPIs? So things like that are really, really important.

It's amazing how many organizations don't give that the thought and just expect them to succeed on day one.

Leo Judkins: And, and, you know, I believe that that's even more true for internal promotions, where people are just kind of left to figure it all out because they already have the connections. And, of course you're now expected to operate on a higher level. And yeah, that's, that comes with all sorts of challenges as well.

So again, an onboarding process, if that's, if you would even use the same name is, is crucial there. 

Andrew Bullos And I think for that, it's super important that you, when you do internal candidates, do a psychometric assessment. So,

Even if they don't get the job, what are they taking away from the experience? What are they learning about themselves that can help them be a better version of themselves next time? 

[00:34:00] So I think they've got to feel that like getting something out of the process. So, yeah.

Leo Judkins: That would also be my my last question there, Andrew. So a lot of people listening to the podcast here are typically kind of VP, director, executive level. Right. So, for people that are. Ambitious, have moved quickly, are looking internally still for promotion. 

The funnel is getting, getting narrower and narrower. There's fewer opportunities, right? What are some of the, some of the best advice you could give someone for, making that next step either internally 

Andrew Bullos So I think the first part is doing a bit of soul searching. Just thinking about, right, okay, well, if I'm going for the next job, what does that next job look like? Do I have the skills, knowledge, and experience to do it? If you're going for the next job, arguably, you've got the motivation to do it. Do I have the skills, knowledge, and experience to do it?

And if you don't, figure out how do you plug those gaps. And you can either do that by yourself, off your own back, or you can go and have a conversation with whoever you're working with. manager or bosses and talk about your, what can you do differently? 

[00:35:00] So I think that's the first thing. The other thing is going back to some of the things that I said earlier in terms of kind of traits and, assets that I look for in people that I meet. So just going back over your experience, almost doing a little bit of a checklist. 

You know, if you're moving into a C level role, there's an expectation that you will have a vision for your business unit, or you will have a vision for the organization that you're leading.

Looking back, when was the last time I had a vision for something? When did I get people bought into a new concept? When did I get people bought into a new idea? How did I win hearts of mind? So When was the last time that you identified a way to make a business more efficient?

So that shows an impact of your thinking laterally. You're thinking innovatively, you're thinking creatively, you're also thinking. Commercially, and also think about what type of leader are you? There's an argument, say, if you're going into a leadership role, what do you think your style might be? How do you want to be perceived as a leader? Where might you need the support from others in order for you to be the best leader that you can be, so, you've got to tell people that you're motivated to do things as well.

[00:36:00] Otherwise, there's an argument to say that you will go on, you know, yes, you could be doing the best job in the world. You could be working really long hours, which isn't always the solution, by the way. You know, you could be adding tremendous amounts of value. You've got to be a little bit overt about some of these things as well. And just making sure that you get noticed.

Leo Judkins: yeah. And get, yeah. Get over yourself there. Right. And I, I think that's such a valuable piece of advice. It's, it's probably, it's often popularized in personal branding, but I can feel like such a big thing for people. 

It's just about communicating what you're delivering and the value that you're delivering to the organization, I think is such a get over yourself and start doing it, you 

Andrew Bullos I think, I think, so. Just, just put your hand up, just put your hand up and say you want to do more.

Leo Judkins: Yeah. Yeah. closed mouth don't get fed. So,  it's that easy. All right, Andrew, thank you very much for this brilliant interviews. It's been super valuable and really insightful. Thank you very much.

Andrew Bullos No, thank you for inviting me. Hopefully it's been helpful for all the people that are listening.

[00:37:00] Thank you for joining me on The iGaming Leader Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iGamingLeader.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. 

I'm your host, Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week.